The Meaning of Life

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Metatron » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:51 pm

Ryan wrote:Yes... logically... how can you be something you didn't first want to be?


I'm not sure if I understood this question either... Because I can be sick, be it a small sickness like cold or a more severe one like a mental disease...

I'm also quite sure that no one in this world wants to be bi or homosexual... So?
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:13 pm

Whether God implanted it or your path led you there... you want it... right? You want it because it was an embedded want by God, all decisions you made that led you on the path you are on is because of your wants... or not?
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:29 pm

Metatron wrote:I'm not sure if I understood this question either... Because I can be sick, be it a small sickness like cold or a more severe one like a mental disease...
You are sick because of where you were and how you were there. The situation that made you sick was just right and your condition of being made it possible for you to get sick in that moment. However, all these things were a matter of choice. If you would like to present me with an exact situation I can explain it as to how it was all a matter of want that led the results to that outcome. (but for someone who believes for the most part the future can be predetermined to a high degree shouldn't have a problem figuring out how someone comes to be in a certain situation at a certain time in order for certain affects to be possible and how those could be viewed as matters of decision based upon wants. Be the want a result of a personality trait or not...)

Metatron wrote:I'm also quite sure that no one in this world wants to be bi or homosexual... So?
This is a matter of self-acceptance and self love. People don't want to be what they are only because of society's need for conformation and fear of difference within individuals (aside from the accepted differences that by society's standards are deemed acceptable and good) and how society projects these fears and demands upon those who aren't. I know several homosexuals who are happy and proud of being so...
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Metatron » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:57 pm

Ryan wrote:
Metatron wrote:I'm not sure if I understood this question either... Because I can be sick, be it a small sickness like cold or a more severe one like a mental disease...
You are sick because of where you were and how you were there. The situation that made you sick was just right and your condition of being made it possible for you to get sick in that moment. However, all these things were a matter of choice. If you would like to present me with an exact situation I can explain it as to how it was all a matter of want that led the results to that outcome. (but for someone who believes for the most part the future can be predetermined to a high degree shouldn't have a problem figuring out how someone comes to be in a certain situation at a certain time in order for certain affects to be possible and how those could be viewed as matters of decision based upon wants. Be the want a result of a personality trait or not...)


Okay, maybe I misunderstood you on a fundamental level. What do you mean by want? Is that something I desire, something that motivates me and makes me act according to it?

Because if it is, then I still don't understand how being sick could have to do anything with wants. I understand that based on another want, I could get into a situation that made it possible for me to get sick. But that's a side effect, not a drive. Especially if the situation is forced upon me; yes, we could go back in that situation and find what led me to the outcome, and we would deffinitely find at least one cause that was a want. But then claiming that, for example, I became sick because of something I wanted is a bit farfetched to me.

But okay, let's say I accept that being sick. But where does a permanent mental disease come from? Especially one that I was born with? We could say it happened because my mother and father wanted to have a baby, but in that case it's their want, not mine.

So I see the logic between the premises, it's just that it doesn't seem to be... how should I say this... usable? In this sense, I could also say that the second world war happened because Hitler's parents wanted to have baby Adolf...

Not to mention that even if I didn't want anything in the world, I couldn't escape certain affects that would shape my mind and personality.

This is a matter of self-acceptance and self love. People don't want to be what they are only because of society's need for conformation and fear of difference within individuals (aside from the accepted differences that by society's standards are deemed acceptable and good) and how society projects these fears and demands upon those who aren't. I know several homosexuals who are happy and proud of being so...

Yes, I am quite well aware of the whole subject, being a bisexual myself. However, what I meant is not dealing with the gayness itself, but, first of all, becoming gay. No ordinary child wants to be homosexual, when they first realize it, they're around the age of 12, when most of them (well, maybe not nowadays) don't even know what their wiener is for. This is simply not a primarily desired state, it means lots of confusion, stress, solitude, isolation, hate and so on. How could anyone want this? Obviously, later you have to embrace it and live with it, because you have to live with it, no matter what. Honestly, I'm quite happy about being like this, but it wasn't always the case.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Ryan » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:32 pm

Ok, as for all things that one is born with... physical, mental, and/or emotional "deformities" or whatever you would like to label them... neither of us have grounds on which to prove anything. That it is or isn't a matter of individual want... for example: a lot of people who believe in reincarnation believe that we have certain lessons to learn in our physical existence (life) in order to proceed to another plane of existence. Some of those would also claim that we choose the parents and environment into which we will be born to better provide us with the possibilities/opportunities to learn those lessons. Others, would claim that that is a bunch of bull..who is right, I can't say...BUT!

What the topic developed into was about living in a simple state of being...rather than wanting to be in that state... so regardless of the cards you were dealt or why... how are you going to play your hand...

It is after all what you want...
John Forbes Nash, Jr.
Stephen William Hawking

Humans' history is filled with people who were born with all kinds of "deformities" that went on to achieve greatness regardless of the obstacles in their paths because that is what they wanted.

Illness... if the want is to not get ill... or to the extreme: Emetophobia... you can talk to a bunch of people who can tell you how not to get sick... If that is what you want. So, if the object is to Not Get Sick then do those things and you probably won't... "if you are not doing those things it doesn't mean you want to get sick" (you might say)... but why aren't you doing those things?? You aren't doing those things because you want to live life not survive life. So, If you are going out on a fall evening to have a blast with your friends and just as you reached out to grab the door knob God speaks to you and says... "If you go out tonight you will meet the love of your life but you are going to catch a cold... get the sniffles and a slight cough..." Do you go anyway?

By accepting a consequence, or even a possible consequence, of some action you do want it essentially because without it you wouldn't receive the other benefits of the action itself. You ever heard the saying "be careful what you wish for because you might just get it"... you might not realize at the time what all comes with what you wanted and change your mind once you get it, but you did want it...
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Metatron » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:19 pm

Ryan wrote:Ok, as for all things that one is born with... physical, mental, and/or emotional "deformities" or whatever you would like to label them... neither of us have grounds on which to prove anything. That it is or isn't a matter of individual want... for example: a lot of people who believe in reincarnation believe that we have certain lessons to learn in our physical existence (life) in order to proceed to another plane of existence. Some of those would also claim that we choose the parents and environment into which we will be born to better provide us with the possibilities/opportunities to learn those lessons. Others, would claim that that is a bunch of bull..who is right, I can't say...BUT!


Yes, I hear you. However, that is speculation. I know of reincarnation, but I have developed a habit of believing things that can provide at least some evidence. Even if I play along, how does the spirit know that in a certain family it will be able to learn the lessons it is looking for? Anyway, that's not the point...

What the topic developed into was about living in a simple state of being...rather than wanting to be in that state... so regardless of the cards you were dealt or why... how are you going to play your hand...

It is after all what you want...
John Forbes Nash, Jr.
Stephen William Hawking


I still say it is not always what I want. I cannot always influence things in a way so that I will reach any goal. I have mentioned this in another thread, my example being me wanting to do ballet. Take the people who are in need... There are so many of them, you find them in all countries. I'm sure the life they're living is not what they want... I don't think many of them get to achieve what they really want. It's not that simple...

By accepting a consequence, or even a possible consequence, of some action you do want it essentially because without it you wouldn't receive the other benefits of the action itself.


No, this is certainly not the case. By accepting an essential part of the process of reaching my goal, I simply accept it, I want the goal, not the side effects. I believe our mind evaluates possible outcomes when it is making a decision. If the side effects are not too bad, it goes for it, but it hates those side effects. You mentioned an example of God telling you about the girl, and the cold. Heck, I get the girl, get rid of the cold after a week and we're done!

Now...

Let's say you're on a deserted island, you have no equipment and God tells you there is a treasure in the bottom of the sea, but you would have to jump from a high cliff... Do you do that? Even if you want the treasure badly, do you consider it worthier than your life?

It's not enough to want... It is also handy to be able to...
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Ryan » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:23 pm

If you want it bad enough you will do what it takes to make it a reality...(an example)

You could have taken ballet but you didn't want to bad enough... instead of finding ways to do it you found reasons why you couldn't. Here's a link to a ballet dancer who started dancing at the age of 47... she now dances all over the world. Here's another of a 90 year old man that started dancing ballet at the age of 79 and got his first leading role at the age of 88.

The same with the needy people of the world... life where you are isn't good... go somewhere else. There are cases all over the world of people doing just that... Cubans built makeshift rafts to come to the U.S. for a "better life". People have crossed deserts for a better life...

And yes, if I really want the treasure bad enough I would be willing to risk my life for it...like the kiwi bird... he wanted to have the feeling of unassisted flying so bad that he was willing to give his life for it. It happens for real as well...

Here's a couple of examples:
The monk
Tank Man

One of these guys died, the other didn't ... however, both accepted the possibility and wanted it, only in the hopes that it would contribute to a change (not that it definitely would)... even in the case they themselves weren't around to reap the rewards.

Some have asked me, "If you could go back in your life to any point and change some things, would you, and if so what would you change and why?"... I wouldn't change a single thing... my life is beautiful and for everything that happened in my life prior has brought me to this point. I want, cherish and appreciate all the illnesses, all the hardships and pain that I have survived because these are the things that have made my life sooooo wonderful today... So, when you say "I want the goal, not the side effects" realize... it is not possible to have the goal without the side effects. They come hand in hand. So, if God were to present you with the option "You can have a wonderful life where all your dreams come true, but you will also have to endure moments of pain and suffering...or you can have a life free of pain and suffering but nothing great will ever happen to you." which life do you WANT!?! Those are the only two options, there aren't anymore, logically or not. God has spoken.(Muhuwahahahaha!)
=0X
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Ryan » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:48 am

Ok... you and I are basically splitting hairs...
You say the conscious or unconscious acceptance of something is not essentially wanting and I say it is... it boils down to "a point of view"...

However, regardless of what it has developed into, the original statement to which I remarked dealt with when you have a choice of being happy or not, why want to be happy... why not just be happy? My remark was dealing with if you are happy, didn't you initially want it? When you have the choice to be something or not and you are one (or the other) didn't you first have to want it?

If you are happy and someone asks you "why are you so happy?"... don't you give them reasons why you are happy? Couldn't they give you a whole bunch of reasons why you shouldn't be happy? If you are sad and someone asks you "why are you so sad?"... don't you tell them why... and again, couldn't they give you reasons why you could be happy?

This is the universe we live in, to every action there is a positive, negative and neutral reaction. Which will you focus on? If you are sick... that's not all you are... you are alive. You are loved. You are loving. You are intelligent. You are male. You are bisexual. You are imaginative. You are... whatever you want to be... take your pick.
;0)

Stephen Hawking's Wikipedia article says:
Wikipedia wrote:Stephen William Hawking, ... is a British theoretical physicist,... His books and public appearances have made him an academic celebrity and he is an Honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences,...


Further down it says:
Wikipedia wrote:Hawking has a neuro-muscular dystrophy that is related to amyotrophic lateral sclerosis...


It does not say he is a neuro-muscular dystrophy patient whose condition is also related to... it says he has it. What will your definition be? How will your Wikipedia article read? What ARE you? You choose! And then be it! But first you have to want it!
80S
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Metatron » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:04 pm

Ryan wrote:Ok... you and I are basically splitting hairs...
You say the conscious or unconscious acceptance of something is not essentially wanting and I say it is... it boils down to "a point of view"...

However, regardless of what it has developed into, the original statement to which I remarked dealt with when you have a choice of being happy or not, why want to be happy... why not just be happy? My remark was dealing with if you are happy, didn't you initially want it? When you have the choice to be something or not and you are one (or the other) didn't you first have to want it?

If you are happy and someone asks you "why are you so happy?"... don't you give them reasons why you are happy? Couldn't they give you a whole bunch of reasons why you shouldn't be happy? If you are sad and someone asks you "why are you so sad?"... don't you tell them why... and again, couldn't they give you reasons why you could be happy?

This is the universe we live in, to every action there is a positive, negative and neutral reaction. Which will you focus on? If you are sick... that's not all you are... you are alive. You are loved. You are loving. You are intelligent. You are male. You are bisexual. You are imaginative. You are... whatever you want to be... take your pick.
;0)

Stephen Hawking's Wikipedia article says:
Wikipedia wrote:Stephen William Hawking, ... is a British theoretical physicist,... His books and public appearances have made him an academic celebrity and he is an Honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences,...


Further down it says:
Wikipedia wrote:Hawking has a neuro-muscular dystrophy that is related to amyotrophic lateral sclerosis...


It does not say he is a neuro-muscular dystrophy patient whose condition is also related to... it says he has it. What will your definition be? How will your Wikipedia article read? What ARE you? You choose! And then be it! But first you have to want it!
80S


Okay, well, I must admit your posts do make a lot of sense and your argumentation, however I hate to say it, convinced me. Maybe not completely, but I see your point. Whatever the truth is, I guess it's just better to incline to the more positive possibilities (not in every case), but in this case deffinitely. I can't really say anything else, maybe thanks for an alternative viewpoint. Worth consideration =0)
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby mirjana » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:45 pm

Hi guys,
Kudos to both, for being so gorgeous in this discussion, making it to develop this way, inspiring each other to continue.
I agree with David, your arguments were really convincing, therefore Kudos. But, you David, your arguments were interesting; you stayed in this like captain with the ship he drives, even when it goes down. But the way you finished this discussion is brilliant showing how wise you are. For that wisdom shown at the end my Kudos.
Thank you [El]


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