The 2012 Hoax

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Dear David...

Postby Ryan » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:59 pm

I said a lot to George about government and religion, and you are absolutely right in that they are very close to being the same... especially in Europe. However, I am willing to bet that if you were to move to a bigger city you wouldn't feel the walls being so confining and it would let in a little light and your disposition would change a bit.

You got it bad... I mean just being a teenager and trying to explore yourself and others is a tough enough task and even more difficult when you are trying to do it under the eyes of religion, but on top of all that you are in a small town and bisexual. If you ask me you have more rights than anybody to be screaming your head off and maybe even setting a few burning bags of poop on the doorsteps of a few houses, but I still say it is not the proper channeling of your energy.

I live in Vienna... pretty large city. Catholic churches all over the place... some very pretty... but I don't see anything or feel them at all... the biggest thing I have a problem with is the advertising, prostitution, and racism (against mainly Turks and Yugoslavs - Serbians/Bosnians/Croatians/etc.). However, if you ask me (and my knowledge is limited) Austrians are fairly calm, collected, calculative... not a very passionate bunch which shows in their politics as well... and I can guarantee you that religion has a hand in politics here but it is as much as their nature dictates. There are gay pride parades and life balls filled with transvestites and the likes and among the pictures of such people you will see the politicians as well.

Now, I am pretty sure the Catholic and Orthodox churches are pretty much the same in Austria as they are in Slovakia so as to the amount of influence the church has within politics. So, I am gathering that the difference is in the amount of control the politicians of the country/state/city give to the church... with this in mind... how much is the church to blame? Is it not natural for anyone (or organization) to want more control and power over how things are to be done/handled? If you were to allow atheists more control over your government would you not expect them to manipulate and push "their ideals" even to the point of possibly over doing it? In my opinion it is only normal and to be expected... you can't blame them for it. You can blame the government officials for not looking out for everyone's interests.
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Heidi » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:10 am

To Generous George:

Many years ago, I rejected Christianity as a whole. My way of thinking was exactly like yours, about the priesthood and how they can manipulate the masses, about the way Jesus was presented to us and all the stories in the New and Old Testament that seemed to me rather naive.

However, I could not reject the idea of a Divine Power which could exist under any name.
I turned to Ancient Greek Religion, Buddhism and Eastern philosophies and learned several things about their way of thinking. Reincarnation and karma seemed completely logical and provided me with an explanation for all the misery and suffering on Earth.

When my mind was satisfied, and I knew that I was able to choose my own way and not the way I was taught at school or by my family, I started reconsidering Christianity.

This time I saw it as another way of approaching the divine through Christian mysticism. I can tell you now, that I LOVE Jesus. Not because someone made me love him, but because I turned to him.
I don't care about the Bible and what the priests say. After all there were so many interventions and alterations in those scripts.

I don't consider myself as "Christian" but I see just one thing. Jesus lived and died like God on Earth. And that is the meaning I get for myself. To live a life I won't be ashamed of, to try to live in a brotherhood of man or try to assist in its creation (as far as this is possible), to spread love and to have in mind that my soul is as divine as Jesus'.

In a few words: Sonship with God, Brotherhood of man.

I wrote this just to let you know, that you are not the only one feeling this way...
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby dermot » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:21 am

I have to say im a lot perplexed having read this topic from start to present post. Sometimes its important to focus on the basis of everything rather than the details , and i think that applies here.

To me, when a peoples/individuals focus is directed without rather than within in terms of authority /belief then its a recipe for disaster.
My country Ireland, has a strong Catholic ethos as a tradition. The clergy were given enormous influence in the way people lived their lives, and in the way they influenced local and national politics.
This resulted in sex scandals where clergy abused young boys, safe in the knowledge that they were above reproach and protected from being exposed.
It also resulted in people growing up with large doses of 'Catholic Guilt', repression was rife, and the individual downtrodden.

What im saying here is, that only when we use our inner intelligence to question our existence, when we arrive at a knowing of ourselves, when we understand that the only reference point we need is actually within us rather than embedded in some organisation - can we truly create the society which does without the need for assurance/protection/organised church/ politics.

until then we debate the details
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Metatron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:57 am

To Ryan:

First of all, I'd like to say that I like what you've said about children, because it is pretty much how I think of it too. You're pretty much the parent I one day hope to be.

Yeah, politics are brainwashing like crazy. But that doesn't mean the church isn't. Believe me, they're trying to do the same as much as politicians do, I'd like to remind you that the church had some serious power not so long ago. Of course they want to regain that power. They'd change a hell of a lot of things if they were allowed to, but that they are not isn't granted, it might change. We live in a rushed world, people don't always stop to think. In the book I mentioned (Chronicles of Narnia, The Last Battle), the fake Aslan is keeping the Animals in fear with power he doesn't even possess. But the Animals don't want to take the risk, cuz what if he really has it? See how easily this could happen?

And after all, who gives those handful of men in each country power? Isn't it the voters? Of course, but if not democracy, what then? Or should we really go into anarchy? It is a messed up system (I am trying really hard not to use some more graphic expressions here), but it's a system. I don't have a rich family behind me, so I am heading towards the same future - working my a** off. I am not saying politics is neccessary because I have been brainwashed, quite theopposite. I am one of the handful citizen of this country who are not going to vote the same party again, because I realise what's going on.

I am attacking the Bible because it is what Christianity is based on. If Christianity was a person, the Bible would be it's CV. The book itself is harmless, but after all, so are weapons and words. There are no bad words, books, or weapons - there are bad intentions. Of course Christianity is used in bad ways and just by Christians. But that's not the point, it's pointless to look at the pure ideology if that's not how it is used.
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To David...

Postby Ryan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:59 am

Megatron wrote:There are no bad words, books, or weapons - there are bad intentions. Of course Christianity is used in bad ways and just by Christians. But that's not the point, it's pointless to look at the pure ideology if that's not how it is used.
Ok, and what I keep trying to get at is... what would Christianity be without the government? What harm could it do? Which is easier to change or to appeal to?
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To Dermot...

Postby Ryan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:08 am

Dermot wrote:What im saying here is, that only when we use our inner intelligence to question our existence, when we arrive at a knowing of ourselves, when we understand that the only reference point we need is actually within us rather than embedded in some organisation - can we truly create the society which does without the need for assurance/protection/organised church/ politics.

until then we debate the details


I agree, however, aren't the details which impose difficulty upon us a nice pointer in the direction of what things we should work on within ourselves? And only upon reflecting upon those details and their difficulties can we look into ourselves and truly get to know those parts we are unfamiliar with?
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Re: To David...

Postby Metatron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:11 am

Ryan wrote: Ok, and what I keep trying to get at is... what would Christianity be without the government? What harm could it do? Which is easier to change or to appeal to?
[/quote]

What would it be without the government? I think the government is pretty much the only thing that keeps religion from butting in way too much into happenings. It is actually in our constitution. Government is deffinitely eaisier to change... Provoke a massive revolution, get early elections, get a new government.

If there was no government... I mean, in some countries Islam is the government. And you have women wearing stupid masks... I could speculate in many ways how a Church driven state could turn out. For example, do you think it would embrace the way science is developping? Looking at history... I don't think so.

PS: I can't believe you quoted me as Megatron? xD
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Ryan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:22 am

METATRON wrote:PS: I can't believe you quoted me as Megatron? xD
LOL!!! Yeah, I've been having difficulty with that one. LOL!!!

I am a bit confused as to why you would bring up a church controlled government... but Ok.

So, you are saying the government is the only thing keeping the church in check, correct? Or did I misunderstand? Maybe I am just unaware of what exactly is going on where you are. Please clarify what exactly is the church doing...
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Metatron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:49 am

Ryan wrote:
METATRON wrote:PS: I can't believe you quoted me as Megatron? xD
LOL!!! Yeah, I've been having difficulty with that one. LOL!!!


Well, keep in mind that's an archangel, the "voice of god", not a nasty decepticon :P

So, you are saying the government is the only thing keeping the church in check, correct? Or did I misunderstand? Maybe I am just unaware of what exactly is going on where you are. Please clarify what exactly is the church doing...


Yes, that's what I am saying. In regards to what the church is doing, I can only bring up examples from weekly preachings I've heard. They're basically telling you off for actually enjoying life, working on sundays, going to parties, watching bad movies, they're telling off science for exploring the universe, genetics and basically anything science does.

Oh, my favourite one was when the priest picked on a show made by kids in our town, at xmas, which they named "Angelically devilish christmas", beginning his preaching with "Where's the world going?"

It is not that serious, but that's what I am saying. The constitution prevents them from coming up with laws that would come too much from God. But if that didn't exist, what would stop them? Slovakia has proven to me in the last couple of years that it is filled with people who are incredibly easy to fool.

And anyway, without going too deep, Isimply chose todislike religion mostly because it would prevent me from doing anything I enjoy doing. Thanks, but no thanks...
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:03 am

Ryans said..."You can no more prove that Jesus was not immaculately conceived any more than the Christians can prove that he was."

So what?? 80S The burden of proof is on those making the extraordinary claim. If I assert there are invisible flying teacups piloted by two headed rodents flying around our moon, you can no more prove that is not true, than I can prove it is true. That does not give any more credibility to the absurd idea of the invisible teacups. Bottom line is, you cannot prove a negative.

"Who cares? What is the harm in someone believing that Jesus was immaculately conceived?"....

It matters a lot if the president of the USA buys into this absurdity and attacks Iraq because the father of the immaculately conceived Jesus told him to do it. What if the same invisible guy in the sky tells him to push the RED BUTTON so we can start Armegeddon, in order to hasten his return when the "true" Christians can skedaddle on over to paradise and heathens like me can start their banishment to eternal torture.

Who is brainwashing you and why do you let them?

My Christian wife, the Pastor and his faithful sheep all want to brainwash ...... er convert me and save my eternal soul =0o They have difficulty with that, but they are much more successful brainwashing children to believe absurd, potentially dangerous fantasy and BS.

"The thing is, there is not one thing that these people can "believe" that will cause anyone harm."

SAT WHAT!!!!! Ryan....they believe the world is 6,000 years old, that Creationism should be taught in school along with the Theory of Evolution....... etc. etc. They don't keep their beliefs to themselves....they want them to be imposed on everyone ...it is their sworn and sacred duty to spread the word everywhere they can! They try (and are often successful) in mixing religion into politics and would like nothing more than a Theocracy to impose their invisible guy in the skys will on all non-believers. The airplane guys flying planes into buildings screaming "Praise God" are doing it from "BELIEFS"!

"You are attacking the religion when what you need to do is attack the government. You need to make a change in the way things are done on that line and the church will fall into place. The church is squat without the government... the government provides the church with their power... it's not the other way around."

Until relatively recently in mankinds history the religions and "God" gave the rulers their divine power. The Christians would like nothing more than to go back to that and impose a Theocracy on the USA. George Bush was elected by Christians in the hopes of doing just that. He attacked Iraq because God told him to. Jeezy Peezy! Many preachers I listen to say...."Our day is coming again" all in the name of saving our fu******** eternal souls. Ryan you need to read Sam Harris and some of Dawkins books again....there is a crisis in this regard in the USA....especially Texas, don't try to start a small business in Texas if you are not "saved".... believe it!

"The ones that have all the strings in their hands don't buy into the whole belief system they are much smarter than that. It is the same like what they are doing in the Middle East, it's WMD's, it's a band of terrorists, it's this or that... rather than it's the cost of oil or the price of gold. Instead they use the church to get people split up, some are angry at the government and some are angry at the church, some at Muslims, and some at colored people. What could be better? The more levels they can split people apart the less likely they will come together and do something to make a real change. The Church is but a pawn in the game..."


Ryan exactly the reverse is true in my humble opinion. =0o

I understand that you are saying something like..."It is not guns that are dangerous, it is the people who have them that make them potentially dangerous." Same thing with religion I guess, people controlled by religious belief are easily controlled by governments.
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