The 2012 Hoax

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
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George and Metatron

Postby Ryan » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:13 pm

Maybe I have been misunderstanding you two...

Is it that you don't have a problem with Christians or Christianity you just have a problem with the Bible and the "nonsense" printed inside it?
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Heidi » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:51 am

To Metatron:
I've been reading your debate with Sabina and I think that your problem is not the Church, the Bible or Christianity in general. After all, all countries have their own religions, with their own injustices and unreasonable rules, and religious wars have been fought all around the planet, since the appearance of man on Earth. All these are not "privileges" of Christianity.

I think that deep inside, you are afraid of rejection because of your personal preferences and because of the lack of freedom you may have in the small community where you live. It's most probably the people's opinion about you, that you are afraid of.

Here in Athens, priests are equally strict, but the majority of people don't pay any attention to them, in contrast to what is happening in smaller towns and villages. If you could live in a big city, where no one knew anything about you, you would go about your normal life as you wanted it to be, without even thinking of the Church or the Bible.

However, there is just one more point. Look deep inside to see if you feel like a "sinner" for anything that is going on in your life. If this is the case, just think that we are all struggling souls on this planet. No one is perfect and we all have things that we appreciate or are proud of about ourselves and things that we want to hide. See life as an experience. Our soul, our higher self is perfect but we are just gathering experiences. Let yourself enjoy your life the way you want it to be, even if this means some sacrifices. Like moving away from your family or town.
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Sabina » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:56 am

Metatron wrote:I can have a problem with something that is not affecting me directly. I can have a problem with every kind of discrimination, murder, crime, war, everything that I don't consider right :)

Definitely...


Metatron wrote:I'd be very happy to ask a person from another forum to come over and tell you his viewpoint, I know for a fact he doesn't go to church and is a lot more passionate about his atheism.


There is nothing wrong with being passionate about something you feel is wrong.
It's just that how we go about "convincing" someone of that injustice defines us, as well as our chance of success. Being creative in the approach helps, and if the injustice is real, there is an unlimited number of possibilities to tackle the subject.
I don't know the person you are referring to, but if he is, for example, passionate and angry, then nobody will listen to him, except maybe the people who already agree with him, and he is not trying to convince them.
Like I said, I don't know him - obviously - so I don't mean him specifically or anyone specifically. It's just something that happens easily when people feel an injustice - they get angry and lose their head, and that's a pity, because it harms them and what they want to accomplish.

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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:43 am

Sabina said......To George:
[url]"If you talked with your children, and were to convince them that the Bible was not written by God, but by fallible humans, and you weren't going to Church, how much would religion affect you?"[/url]

Sabina, religion as it is practiced here in the USA would still affect me. One example is how the Christian churches want to change our education curriculums to include as fact that the earth is only 6,ooo years old and that intelligent design should be given equal time and content space as evolution. That in itself is incredibly and ignorantly wrong. To teach something as fact which is supported only by the Bible and no scientific experiment or supporting evidenced is deliberately dumbing down the country to support cultish superstition.

This is nothing new for religion, they have constantly fought and punished scientific thinking for centuries. They don't want science to answer mysteries that they claim as God's magical power and they will go to any lengths the society they are part of will allow to prevent that.


George, you said yourself what Sam Harris thinks of Europe in this regard, and there is religion in Europe as well, so it is obviously not necessary to exterminate religion per se. You may think that the world would be a better place without it, but in that sense it is just an opinion.
If things weren't so extreme as they are in the States according to your (and others') reports, then religion wouldn't be harmful, same as it is not harmful here. Correct?


Sabina religion and superstion, myths, whatever you want to call religion, is extreme in concept when looked at in an objective way, based on evidence and common sense. Only "Religion" gets a free pass on advocating belief in absurditiy. (virgin births, rising from the dead, the return of jesus to rescue his chosen people and destroy the non-believers etc. etc. )

The high priests of all religions have influenced their governments everywhere that their Gods ridiculous proclamations are "sacred" and not to be questioned or made to pass any test of logic or common sense. They are so sacred, that they do not even have to pay taxes on their "sacred income". We might as well be back in the jungle sacrificing virgins to the Gods to procure good weather. That is not one iota more extreme than what Christianity, Islam, whatever and their ridiculous "Holy Books" advocate now. Why do you think that is not a harmful thing? 80S
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:17 pm

Ryan said....Maybe I have been misunderstanding you two...

Is it that you don't have a problem with Christians or Christianity you just have a problem with the Bible and the "nonsense" printed inside it?


The Bible is Christianity, it is the literal word of God as the Koran is for Muslim the two are basically incompatible. That is the problem with religion, ignoring it is not the answer. It is a nice theory that we are not affected by it if we just let them go their own way and believe what they want. Freedom of speech, thought, religion, whatever. In a practical way it is just not possible."There can be only one." and........ they will go to any length to insure that......after all it is our eternal souls and eternal torment that is at stake.

AND THEY REALLY BELIEVE IT! =0o

I have no problem with Christian or Muslim people, it is religion that must spread the world and dominate the planet to save our souls and honor their particular almighty invisible guy in the sky that is the problem.

Sabina and Ryan please explain to me why you think that kind of religion is okay if we just leave them alone and go about our business as if they did not exist? =0/
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Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Ryan » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:06 pm

(disclaimer: I use the word YOU in the below statement a lot, but I am not talking specifically about you, I am talking about the majority of people... especially in the US.)

I would say, simply... if education is our primary concern and we start pumping out young adults that were given the necessary tools to think for themselves and logically that religion wouldn't stand a chance. Instead, everything is geared so that you have to put all your time and energy into just getting by. To where living is the main task that needs to be addressed and education in the schools is simply geared to crank out a more working class that does what they are told and gets into the scheme of things. And there they are caught, in the big circular stream of what most accept as life. All of this enables the church to affect everyone else.

You can't blame the church, or the government completely, the biggest problem is nobody is doing anything. It is national law in the states that Christianity can not be involved in the education of children in public schools. That is why prayer is no longer allowed... it was when I was a kid. Every morning prayer and the pledge of allegiance... But since freedom of religion is part of everyone's constitutional rights they can't cater to one side in school, they either had to let everyone practice their religion's rituals or they couldn't allow any of them... logics won.

I almost got a teacher fired half way around the world by e-mail... now... my daughter wasn't too happy about it because of the pressure it put on her... but that teacher will definitely be more careful with calling students names like stupid, dummy, idiot... The school systems... well any organization, is so afraid of being sued and having some big scandal that you got everything going for you... but you're too busy or preoccupied to do anything about it, and you accept it for what it is and think you are powerless against it. I just say... don't directly attack the church...the Bible, it will get you no where except in the dog house. Go after the government, the education system, let's start cranking out some intelligent, free thinking adults, who are able to see religion doesn't answer any questions just makes you content with the current state of things until the day you die and look back at your life and think "What was this all about again?"... If you have a bunch of people who listen and truly think about what is being said... such as most people on this forum... what harm can it really do? None, why it can do harm is because we have a bunch of sheep as citizens not people. And we have sheep because that's all the current way of living can produce...

My wife and I work from home, we set our hours, we work freelance, and who knows how much money we are going to make year to year. We cut our expenses to the minimum and we live wonderfully... and we are always home, sometimes the kids would like to have our attention when we are working and we can do that... or we can explain to them we can't right now we have to work. But we are the one's watching our children grow and sharing our knowledge and helping to shape their minds... not some religiously motivated person that hasn't a lick of common sense in their head. Not TV or shopping malls either, we don't have one TV channel, we buy and rent movies/TV series/ but we don't pipe any commercials into our home or our kids.(I did whip out the antenna last night to watch the Supper Bowl and we generally watch the Oscars and we have an online subscription to watch tennis matches and all are pretty much commercial free). We make a change in ourselves to change the way we raise our kids because that is our way of affecting the future. The children are the future, we all know it, let's put a good head on their shoulders and do what we can to make things easier for them to change things even more.

Don't be Don Quixote... this was mentioned somewhere else (Mirjana I think) and I believe George replied with the dangers of windmills are imaginary... well if one of those things were to whack you in the head because you were to stupid to get out of the way, that imaginary danger wouldn't seem so imaginary after all. However, most of us see it for what it is and pay attention to the blades of a windmill. However, if you let a little kid who has never seen a fan into a room where there is a nice fan circulating the air and just watch that kid without saying a word, it will eventually stick its finger in that fan...or tongue, ear, whatever... it is our responsibility to educate the child not to stick its finger in the fan, it will hurt. And don't say that is what you are trying to do by speaking up about Christianity... the fan is how it is, it isn't the fan's fault. It is the uneducated child's fault... or more to the point the parent's fault for sticking it in a room with a fan and not teaching them about the fan.

There are too many things we all point our fingers at others and blame them for why things are the way they are and we automatically excuse ourselves... we are the one's responsible for the way things are in our lives, no one else. We are responsible for the education of our children... anyone can teach their kid how to read, write, add, multiply, and divide... it's all the other stuff that is missing... these are the things that cause the mind to come alive. Provoke original thought to explore... change the education system... the church is trying to ( you keep mentioning the world 6000 years old) beat them to it and start educating some thinkers not sheep.
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