The 2012 Hoax

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Reply to George

Postby Sabina » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:44 pm

Yes George, I have read the book, and I was surprised. Reading your posts about it I expected the book to be more extreme, but it makes some good points.

He does make some factual errors. Gandhi's biggest inspiration, for example, for his passive resistance movement was not Jainism but Henry David Thoreau and his essay "Resistance to Civil Government", which later appeared under the title "Civil Disobedience".
More info right here on DS:
- Gandhi
- Thoreau

Towards the end the book gets quite stupid though (unfortunately).. which I didn't expect.
Passages like this one:
"You would expect it [The Bible] to contain a passage such as "In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet." The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century."
are funny and ludicrous.
Someone should have told him not to put this there and discredit himself...
Most of his points are still valid, but he is an extremist.

As for the people who are waiting for the "wonderful day".. George, stupidity and ignorance are a global phenomenon and not limited to any particular religion, not even limited to theists. Such examples are a display of a lack of education, which is the big underlying problem here, and not religion... From what I know the US education system creates a mass of non-thinking badly educated "slaves", and only a few manage to get a real education.
Better education would mean less ignorance... and more free thinkers.

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Reply to David

Postby Sabina » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:51 pm

Metatron wrote:True, politicians do that too, but as I've said, politics are neccessary.

Woa.. politics are necessary?
I don't think so...
In the society as it is today they are, but we are talking here about what needs to change, and politics definitely fall into that category. The way the whole system is organized is wrong.

Metatron wrote:... I agree, it's scary what misinterpreted ideologies can cause. As I've said (or maybe not on this forum), I don't havea problem with Christianity as an ideology, but thing is, ideologies never stay on the same level. It starts off somehow, then people take over, and from then on, especially when it comes to religious ideologies that are impossible to define, the ideology itself loses control.

Exactly... so if the problem is that an ideology has been misinterpreted, then why not help point out the misinterpretation?
Why attack the whole thing?

What is the best that can come of attacking Christianity? In your opinion...
Speaking out in this manner will ideally make what happen?

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Re: Reply to David

Postby Metatron » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:06 am

Sabina wrote:
Metatron wrote:True, politicians do that too, but as I've said, politics are neccessary.

Woa.. politics are necessary?
I don't think so...
In the society as it is today they are, but we are talking here about what needs to change, and politics definitely fall into that category. The way the whole system is organized is wrong.


Of course it is wrong, but it still is neccessary. It doesn't matter what we call it, the definition for politics is "the art of governing a state", whether stealing and lying truly are art is debatable, but no matter how much it will evolve in the future, it still will be some kind of governing, so we might as well call it politics. And don't tell me it isn't neccessary, it is deffinitely faulty, as everything human made is, but not concentrating power into a smaller and smarter group of people, wouldproduce chaos. In my book, anarchy is a lot worse than politics. No matter how faulty it is, it still provides some degree of safety, possibilities and comfort.

I'm trying to look at some positives here, because there are. It needs development, true. But what kind of development does the Church, for example, undertake? Dogmas are dogmas. They haven't really changed their views, but they know that if religion wants to survive, it needs to adapt. That's what it's doing, but not on a terribly large scale. They're acting like an organism, basically.

Exactly... so if the problem is that an ideology has been misinterpreted, then why not help point out the misinterpretation?
Why attack the whole thing?


May I ask you how many times have you successfully pointed out misinterpreted ideologies, and made a difference? This is not the first forum I'm debating on, I used to go to a teen forum which had a forum dedicated to religious ideas, and believe me, I've seen atheists my age there who knew the Bible better than religious folks, knew history, used biology, physics and logic in ways that stunned me. A moderator is actually a graduating student of philosophy. Here is what I've seen there, in a nuttshell:

First of all, the discussions there had a friendly tone mostly, the questions to (mostly Christian) religionists were asked in an intelligent, well written and non-offending way.In spite of this, religionists conveniently decided what points they want to answer, they usually left out points that would have had a crucial impact on the outcome of the debate, or simply said something like "The Lord has mysterious ways." Not to mention their posts were full of logical fallacies.

Second, you can't fight dogmas. Why? Because they are supposedly the effects of divine inspiration, they're not objective, observable facts, these are all based on hard to interpret books. For god's sake, not even an orthodox and a roman catholic Christian (yeah, same book, two different religions) can solve their problems between themselves. I'm not saying attacking is better, it's actually just as useless as gentle debates.

But when someone wants to hit you Sabina, do you let them? Won't you fight back?

Speaking out in this manner will ideally make what happen?


Probably nothing, it's an evil circle. But I've "fought many useless wars against a higher power in my life", when I knew it wasn't going to make a difference. I've never once backed away from telling a teacher, headmistress, anyone, that I thought they were wrong. As long as I voice my opinion I am satisfied, because I know I'm not blindly giving in to supposedly higher powers. That is my way of not getting lost in this world.
Who the hell is it you try to impress?

All you have to do is learn to care less!
User avatar
Metatron
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:21 pm
Location: Slovakia
Personality: Ambivert
State of Mind or Tendency: Sleepy
Kudos: 13

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby mirjana » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:57 am

To David:

I agree with you about politics and anarchy. The former is much better than the later.
I also agree with you that Church does not contribute to development. And Dogmas are dogmas. Unfortunately there are so many dogmas around and not only connected with Church. Education system is dogmatic, medical system is dogmatic, not to mention again politics. It is not what is good; it is more what is less bad. Actually if there is only one man in any of these institution who is different, honest and truly and knows and follows the original scripts of any religion (because I am not talking only about Christianity), then there are things that can be learned. You know well that having one great free thinker between professors will have a great impact on the whole generation that attends his/her classes.
And of course you are right about tolerance. My words about tolerance were said in relation to normal daily things, like freedom to be what you want, to love whom you want, to believe in what you want and that does not endangered others. I didn‘t talk about things that are dangerous for others. Then, one who disagrees should do something what he/she can.

To Generous George and David

One who disagrees should do something. As Gandhi said: “You must be the change you want to see in the world."

But look, it seems not to be easy. You both are standing very clear against Christianity, and I do understand all reasons that are said and sound very reasonable. I am not a Christian so I am not defending anybody and anything. Still, what is not clear to me is the following. You both go to Church, David because of his grandmother, and George because of his family. So, isn‘t it possible that by both of you there is such a huge problem because you are personally not consequent. Maybe if you could do that, everything will be much easier.
I quoted Gandhi, but it is not always easy or at all possible, I understand that too. If this is not possible then there is another solution which goes something like: „If you cannot change that what makes you angry, and you can not change you, change your environment, especially if you are aware that you „cannot fight dogma“.
In both cases you protect your integrity and make the best of it in the environment which allows the developing of personal creativity and individuality.
Anger brings no changes but only misery to one who feels it. Why anybody who is aware would do that to self?
I know it is easier to advise than to do. For you David, there is always such a possibility considering your age. It is not as easy for George I imagine. But, anger, when one realizes that it is a fight of Don Quixote, also does not bring anything.

Mirjana
User avatar
mirjana
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:09 pm
State of Mind or Tendency: Inspired
Kudos: 48

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Ryan » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:33 am

Ok, I am one of the last people to defend modern religion... of any kind... however...

Metatron wrote:Of course it is wrong, but it still is neccessary. It doesn't matter what we call it,...
...
... No matter how faulty it is, it still provides some degree of safety, possibilities and comfort.


Now then... are you talking about religion or politics here?

Why is it you think politics is wrong and corrupt yet it is still necessary and able to be changed and religion/Christianity cannot be changed?

After all, doesn't every country have its own political dogmas? How else does the government embed patriotism within its individuals? Isn't every country the "greatest country in the world"?

Why does the church have so much power over so many people? If everything in the Bible and what comes out of their mouths is such complete nonsense how is it possible that so many people fall into it and can't see their way out of it?

Let's approach this from a scientific method...
You have a problem you intend to solve scientifically, how does the scientist deal with it? Does he attack the problem and point out how it is a problem, or does he figure out why it is happening and find a solution to change it so it doesn't happen again?

You mention racism as being intolerable... it still happens... and we still tolerate it simply because mass amounts of people aren't being killed as a result. But why only mention racism? Why not discrimination in general? Isn't racism just a form of discrimination? Why would one form of discrimination be acceptable over another? This is where it gets tricky, this is where that very fine line is drawn, and you start teetering between justice and genocide...

There is certainly nothing wrong with voicing one's opinion. I certainly do it... I believe everyone on this forum does it and that is what the forum is here for. We all embrace your opinion and treat it with respect and that is why we offer our opinions as people who believe similarly to yourself. There is quite a bit wrong with modern religion today just be careful to not become your own brand of street corner preacher that instead of holding a bible, quoting scripture, and telling them they are all sinners and going to burn in hell, you are holding a bible, quoting scripture , and telling them how stupid and close minded they are... people tend to walk by both types in the same manner.
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: no favorite book but favorite stories
Favorite movie: the Star Wars saga
Things I like: My family, nature, movies, games, music... more later
State of Mind or Tendency: Inspired
Kudos: 50

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:27 am

I agree with Metatron and Sam Harris. Religion is the only arena where dogma can be called "SACRED" and untouchable no matter how ludicrous or potentially harmful.

Come on Ryan!! When did numbers of people who ascribe to something have anything to do with it's truth or validity. IE.... Earth is flat and sun revolves around it. The fact that so many people agree to accept ludicrous and dangerous is exactly what makes religion so scary.

You cannot counter religion scientifically. It is a sin to deny the basic premises of Christianity. Either believe Jesus was born of a teenage virgin, rose from the dead, earth is 6,000 years old, Noahs Ark is literally true.... etc. etc. etc. or suffer terribly in the fires of hell. FOREVER!! =0o

Unfortunately Don Quixote's windmilla were imaginary while the dangers of being brainwashed that there is an invisible guy in the sky who is watching your every move.....especially in the BEDROOM 80S "Moderate" religious believers give credibility to radicals. Once you actually believe in the fairy tale of your own particular invisible guy in the sky and his book..... it does not matter if you are peaceful or violent, you are crazy and at some point willing to fight to the death for your particular brand of delusion.

Sabina....SAM HARRIS IS NOT AN EXTREMIST. PROMISE!! What do you find extreme about this statement...... "You would expect it [The Bible] to contain a passage such as "In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers—the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus—and this system shall be called the Internet." The Bible contains nothing like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century." What Sam is saying is that the most perfect, righteous all knowing and all powerful God in the world could have done a heck of a lot better with his prophecies. If he can change wine to water, raise the dead and other highly improbable baloney how about just one real prophecy from his literal word.

The fact that you see no harm in people being brainwashed (especially young children) about the invisible guy and what he wants from us at any cost is scary. You cannot be partly nuts.....it is just a matter of degree of willingness to do what "GOD" tells you that separates our fundamentalists from the guys that fly airplanes into buildings.
User avatar
GenerousGeorge
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:11 am
Location: Houston Texas
Personality: Extrovert
State of Mind or Tendency: Optimistic
Kudos: 19

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Sabina » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:49 am

Ok, first I must clarify that various cultures had misconceptions of a flat Earth, including ancient Babylon, Egypt, pre-Classical Greece and pre-17th century China.
Wikipedia wrote:The false belief that medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth. In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.

Not everything that was wrong and misunderstood or misinterpreted in history is due to religion.

What is extreme about Sam Harris' statement is that the Bible, or any "book of wisdom" is not meant to be a Nostradamus. So the Bible was written by humans, and not God. And what?

GenerousGeorge wrote:The fact that you see no harm in people being brainwashed (especially young children) about the invisible guy and what he wants from us at any cost is scary. You cannot be partly nuts.....it is just a matter of degree of willingness to do what "GOD" tells you that separates our fundamentalists from the guys that fly airplanes into buildings.

Oh, is that what I said? :)
Of course brainwashing people is wrong... but if you are against brainwashing, then why limit it to only one small portion? Why not talk about brainwashing in general?

Tell me something, how does Sam Harris talk of Europe in terms of religion, in terms of education, and all the other comparisons he makes, like teen pregnancy, etc.?

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:21 am

I believe Sam Harris thinks that Europe is miles ahead of the US in terms of religious dogma. I believe that because people from Europe don't get to see what Christianity is really about in the USA, they don't get the full picture.

My point about the flat earth was just to make the point that numbers of people believing in something does not make that soemthing valid or true. I was not critizising religion for fostering that belief.

Of course the bible is not meant to be Nostradamus, but it was supposed to be the perfect word on moral human behaviour and Christians tout it's miracles and prophecies as a sign that is so. That's all I mean. My experience of reading the Bible is that you have to do extensive Cherry Picking to pull good moral behaviour from in and you have to ignore a lot medieval evil, cruelty, bigotry and just general stupid, luidicrous statements to find the good stuff. Just take a look at the Ten commandments and tell me it required the most awesome and wise man in the world to inspire them.

The ten commandments sound a lot more like the commands of a power hungry human despot than a pure and wise God.

No you did not use the term brainwashing, I chose it B0) I chose it because I see it happening, that is what it is and it is NOT RIGHT!

Do you want your kids to be told the earth is 6,000 years old and that "evolutionist" is a competing religion whose purpose is to discredit God? Do you want them to believe they were born worthless sinners (Whatever that means) and carry with them all the SINS of their ancestors and.....the only way to avoid eternal torture is to believe a bunch of baloney....oh yeah and tithe 10% of their income to their tax free high priests. That the world was created by magic and they had a sacred duty to travel the world and convince others of the rightness of their mindless delusion.

It is time to stop turning a blind eye to the primitive God worship that has caused so mucd division, cruelty war and stupidity in our world.

SIGHHHHH! There, now I feel better......that's my story and I'm sticking to it! (At least until some reasonable person explains to me why I am wrong.) 80|
User avatar
GenerousGeorge
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:11 am
Location: Houston Texas
Personality: Extrovert
State of Mind or Tendency: Optimistic
Kudos: 19

Re: The 2012 Hoax

Postby Metatron » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:53 pm

Ryan wrote:Now then... are you talking about religion or politics here?


Come on. More often than not, to speak ofone is to speak of the other. Both affect our lives, directly or indirectly. Both are a source of conflicts. Both have started wars in the past. Both still may start wars in the future and both share a great desire for money. Both are power hungry.

After all, doesn't every country have its own political dogmas? How else does the government embed patriotism within its individuals? Isn't every country the "greatest country in the world"?


I know what's the deal with our current government, you may know it too, you live pretty close to us. Thing is, the Slovak - Hungarian conflict has been very much awaken with this government, I know it was so open and aggressive with the previous one. We've had great politicians in the past government, one of them was a cool Hungarian who cheered for the Slovak football and hockey teams. It all changed later, when the same hungarian political party that once was in the government got a new fanatic leader, and when another fanatic slovak fan got into the new government.

This is what it is all about, it's about individuals. Patriotism does not take on extreme levels until it is not encouraged to do so, and anyway, a state needs to be governed. If we didn't have organized police, crime would be even bigger than it is now. It would produce chaos. I know our former government did some pretty nasty things, but Slovakia still prospered. Right now they're openly stealing, and the country is going down the road.

And please, patriotism is still a different dogma than religion. I see no problem with a Hungarian and a Slovak being friends, because their dogmas are limited to their own history, nationality etc. But what about friendship between a Muslim and a Christian? How can those two be friends when they know the other one is a sinner? They may never come to an agreement when it comes to creation, their god, because their own god tells them the other one is false. It's just that these dogmas go so much deeper.

Why does the church have so much power over so many people? If everything in the Bible and what comes out of their mouths is such complete nonsense how is it possible that so many people fall into it and can't see their way out of it?


Because most people are naturally scared of death and religion tells them death doesn't exist, that it's just a new beginning. It is in the human nature to rid oneself of any uncertainties.

You mention racism as being intolerable... it still happens... and we still tolerate it simply because mass amounts of people aren't being killed as a result. But why only mention racism? Why not discrimination in general? Isn't racism just a form of discrimination? Why would one form of discrimination be acceptable over another? This is where it gets tricky, this is where that very fine line is drawn, and you start teetering between justice and genocide...


Racism was only an example, other types of discrimination are just as bad.

There is quite a bit wrong with modern religion today just be careful to not become your own brand of street corner preacher that instead of holding a bible, quoting scripture, and telling them they are all sinners and going to burn in hell, you are holding a bible, quoting scripture , and telling them how stupid and close minded they are...


Thing is, that's not what was happening on that forum and that's not what I am doing now. I am asking question, they either don't answer or their answer is a logical fallacy. I really don't know how else I could say this... They're unchangable, because change is not in their religious dictionary. Those dogmas cannot be changed. Political dogmas (are they even ogmas?) can, and have, that's why we have different, evolved systems from those in the past.
Who the hell is it you try to impress?

All you have to do is learn to care less!
User avatar
Metatron
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:21 pm
Location: Slovakia
Personality: Ambivert
State of Mind or Tendency: Sleepy
Kudos: 13

First to George...

Postby Ryan » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:22 pm

During the time when everyone KNEW the world was flat... who was the crazy one? The one running around saying it is spherical... and to him everyone else was crazy. Crazy, is just one person's judgment on another person's behavior based upon their own limited understanding. You can no more prove that Jesus was not immaculately conceived any more than the Christians can prove that he was. Who cares? What is the harm in someone believing that Jesus was immaculately conceived?

Who is brainwashing you and why do you let them? In order to be brainwashed you have to put yourself in the position to be brainwashed... or you are being forced to listen to Christian propaganda? If so, the States have really changed a lot since I was there. Do they have speakers on the street corners that are playing scripture from the Bible 24-7? If there is so much brain washing why are you against Christianity and not brainwashed yourself?

My kids go to a school where religion is taught in the school...because this is a Catholic country all state schools teach religion. However my son does not attend those classes because he does not have a religion. If I could not be certain that my child was not to be subjected to religious propaganda I would remove my child from the school and put him in one that I could be sure. If I could not find one I would teach my child at home. If home schooling was not allowed I would leave and find a place that is not so religious. We have went through the whole thing with one child all the questions the things she has heard from others... a child's mind is impressionable. Most definitely, but a child is also a logical being. We talked to our kids about religion at the same time or before they are introduced to any "brainwashing". We have told them the things they will say, we ask them if that makes sense, provided them with an alternate way to look at it and asked them which one sounds better. Children are not stupid... they are impressionable. We as parents have a responsibility to make the first impression...

The thing is, there is not one thing that these people can "believe" that will cause anyone harm. Churches don't have armies, navies, air forces... government does. Churches don't complicate your lives so much that you have to work your butts off just to get by in order to force you to install your children in some brainwashing facility, the government does. The church is just the propaganda... but propaganda doesn't affect anyone if there is no one to read/watch/ or listen to it... so the government makes sure you do that.

You attack the church or Bible, that's like attacking a book, newspaper, or magazine and not the people who are publishing it, advertising it, selling it, or worse yet putting you into a corner where the only way out is to read it. You are attacking the religion when what you need to do is attack the government. You need to make a change in the way things are done on that line and the church will fall into place. The church is squat without the government... the government provides the church with their power... it's not the other way around... it is just a strategic maneuver. You think the church has brainwashed everyone so that those brainwashed people are in government and implementing the taught ideals into laws of the land. That's just not true... only the public puppets are brainwashed by the church. The ones that have all the strings in their hands don't buy into the whole belief system they are much smarter than that. It is the same like what they are doing in the Middle East, it's WMD's, it's a band of terrorists, it's this or that... rather than it's the cost of oil or the price of gold. Instead they use the church to get people split up, some are angry at the government and some are angry at the church, some at Muslims, and some at colored people. What could be better? The more levels they can split people apart the less likely they will come together and do something to make a real change. The Church is but a pawn in the game...

Sam Harris mentions all these wars that were based upon religion... I know for a fact that the war(s) between Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia had nothing to do with religion. Yet that is what the governments want you to believe and that is what is flooded to you by the media. This is the same media that is flooded to your preachers and priests as well. I am willing to bet if you get into the other wars as well you will find another more political motive... certainly the church is there to float in on the wake of all that madness and claim all the fearful souls that have an outstretched hand... in comes the propaganda...
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: no favorite book but favorite stories
Favorite movie: the Star Wars saga
Things I like: My family, nature, movies, games, music... more later
State of Mind or Tendency: Inspired
Kudos: 50

PreviousNext

Return to Spirited Debate

Who is online

Registered users: No registered users

cron
StumbleUpon Digg Delicious Reddit Yahoo Google Live Facebook Twitter MySpace