Step by Step

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Re: Step by Step

Postby Daywhite » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:05 pm

Such good points, all.

Ryan, as you ask of Mirjana, "I am not sure what fear (or fears) you are talking about... would you define the specific fear (or fears) so that we can consider it or them?" If I understand Mirjana correctly, I think she is initially saying that fear is basically a learned behavior, which I agree with. I do think a child is born innocent and fearless, and is then taught fear by experiences (he steps on a bee, is stung, and from then on, not fully understanding exactly why the bee hurt him, he fears bees) and by the attitudes of those around him. His parents may be prejudice, talking about "those people" and all the things "those people" will do. Hearing this, whether directly or indirectly, he learns to fear "those people." Each of these fears, of the bee and of "those people" are based on ignorance, not knowing or understanding bees and "those people." As he grows, if he allows himself, he may come to love and appreciate bees and grow to like "those people" better than he does his parents.

I think this speaks, as well, to Mirjana's second point, a fearless person experiencing something terrible and from that moment on, everything associated with that experience is feared.

Sabina, I think quite often, maybe not 100% of the time, but often the fear of being alone is based on ignorance. You say a person who is comfortable with being by themselves wouldn't have a fear of being alone. I agree. My point being, generally one who is comfortable with herself knows herself well enough to know she doesn't need anyone else to be entertained, to be safe. This self knowledge has promoted the confidence, leaving any initial fear behind. As for someone being boring and needing others to entertain them, I don't think they are afraid of being alone as much as they would simply prefer not to. Fear promotes anxiety, and I don't think one who is bored is necessarily experiencing anxiety so much as simple boredom.

As for someone fearing being alone because of a disability, I think often this happens when the disability is new to the person. They're not used to it, unsure what to do or what they may be capable of. Over time, they learn they can do so many things they would've never imagined. "Yes, I'm in a wheelchair, but I can do whatever I may need, and the things I can't do, I learn to adapt to." Quite often, they realize they don't "need" someone to take care of them; it's nice to have, but not needed. Not saying there aren't exceptions, but I think the longer a person lives with a disability, the less they fear, realizing what they can and can't do. Make sense?
"Sometimes you do it to save your own life, not anybody else's. That's mostly why I write. I'm not trying to change anybody else's life or the world; I'm trying to keep from blowing my own brains out. That's the real point." -- Guy Clark
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Re: Step by Step

Postby mirjana » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:29 pm

Sabina wrote:
Sabina wrote:Is the fear of being alone based on ignorance as well?
mirjana wrote:The same is with the fear to be alone. Again the lack of self-confidence.

Mirjana, I disagree. You are only talking about the fear of being alone in connection with the fear of not finding a partner, a mate.

Strange, I didn't mean that or said that. Actually I didn't even use the phrase of being alone, and not at all connected with a mate, but only repeated(and it is in your quote) your words about fear to be alone and gave my answer that could be a result of lack of self confidence.
Sabina wrote:Also, let us completely disregard the possessiveness for a moment, I am not connecting the two at all. Take only the fear of being alone.
A person who is comfortable with being by themselves wouldn't have a fear of being alone. I think it can also be as simple as that.
In that sense the fear of being alone doesn't necessarily have to do with ignorance.
What if someone is just boring and they need others to entertain them? So they are afraid of being alone because they would die of boredom if they were alone. It's not a matter of self-confidence... they know themselves pretty well and they just are that boring.
Or, someone could have a fear of being alone because of a disability, a physical disability for instance. They need someone to help them day to day, so they are afraid of being alone for very practical reasons.
Could it not be one of those reasons as well? Wouldn't that mean that the fear is not necessarily based on ignorance?

Aren't all these examples only a proof of different reasons of lack of self confidence?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby mirjana » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:19 am

Daywhite wrote:Such good points, all.

Ryan, as you ask of Mirjana, "I am not sure what fear (or fears) you are talking about... would you define the specific fear (or fears) so that we can consider it or them?" If I understand Mirjana correctly, I think she is initially saying that fear is basically a learned behavior, which I agree with. I do think a child is born innocent and fearless, and is then taught fear by experiences (he steps on a bee, is stung, and from then on, not fully understanding exactly why the bee hurt him, he fears bees) and by the attitudes of those around him. His parents may be prejudice, talking about "those people" and all the things "those people" will do. Hearing this, whether directly or indirectly, he learns to fear "those people." Each of these fears, of the bee and of "those people" are based on ignorance, not knowing or understanding bees and "those people." As he grows, if he allows himself, he may come to love and appreciate bees and grow to like "those people" better than he does his parents.

I think this speaks, as well, to Mirjana's second point, a fearless person experiencing something terrible and from that moment on, everything associated with that experience is feared.

Thank you Daywhite. Yes, that was what I wanted to say. =0)
Ryan, Daywhite answered your last question you put to me. This is the only reason I do not answer it as I would only repeat his words.
Excuse me please. My English is not always the best, =0( , and it is possible that I do not always succeed to express the best that what I wanted to say.

=0)
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Sabina » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:56 pm

Daywhite wrote:
ignorance-->fear-->anger-->hate-->violence.

I will save any long winded rationale or reasoning until the debate begins, but what are your thoughts? Can most violence be avoided with knowledge, defeating violence by defeating ignorance? Do you think it is related as I have the steps listed?

Ok, let's say that fear can be avoided or healed through knowledge.
Can the above sequence be interrupted at any of the points or is healing ignorance, so knowledge, the only way to stop it?

Does fear always lead to anger? Does anger always lead to hate and hate to violence?
I don't think violence is necessarily predetermined, just because one is ignorant. Aren't there different manifestations of fear and anger, such as withdrawal and passivity?

Sabina
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Daywhite » Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:20 pm

As Sabina asks, "Does fear always lead to anger? Does anger always lead to hate and hate to violence? I don't think violence is necessarily predetermined, just because one is ignorant. Aren't there different manifestations of fear and anger, such as withdrawal and passivity?

No, I don't think the steps are inevitable, but that is allowed to progress naturally, will, generally, lead to the next step. It's kind of like a fire smoldering. If someone notices and does something to counteract what could occur, then it will not progress. Or, occasionally, if left to smolder on its own, the fire will die out from lack of fuel. I agree; I don't think violence is predetermined at all. It's more a matter of, in many cases, if one sees violence and is able to trace the roots of it back, it will often take this regression. Yes, obviously, many handle fear and anger with withdrawal and passivity; that's where the personal decision comes in. Yes, violence can be stopped, but it must be a choice. And, sometimes, not all the time, but occasionally, there is knowledge behind that choice.

As an example of withdrawal or passivity, to return to our friend the snake. If one is hiking in the woods and happens upon a snake, no idea whether it's poisonous or not, most will choose, if distance permits, to withdraw, leave the snake to its own. The violence may come in when directly confronted with the snake. Say you're walking and step almost directly on a snake. You're afraid to run; perhaps the snake is about to strike. So, out of confusion as to what is safe and what is not, you strike with your hiking stick, hitting the snake repeatedly, even after it is dead. That's when the ignorance of the snake, of the situation, could lead to violence.

As with any cornered or caged animal, man, when threatened and lacking understanding, will usually strike out violently, simply a survival instinct, the fight or flight reflex. That's why I say much of it begins in ignorance.
"Sometimes you do it to save your own life, not anybody else's. That's mostly why I write. I'm not trying to change anybody else's life or the world; I'm trying to keep from blowing my own brains out. That's the real point." -- Guy Clark
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