Step by Step

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Step by Step

Postby Daywhite » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:28 pm

I wasn't sure whether to post this in Psychology or here in Spirited Debate. I chose this; not sure why.

I have long believed there are five connected steps that lead to most violent acts. I lay it out this way:
ignorance-->fear-->anger-->hate-->violence.

I will save any long winded rationale or reasoning until the debate begins, but what are your thoughts? Can most violence be avoided with knowledge, defeating violence by defeating ignorance? Do you think it is related as I have the steps listed?
"Sometimes you do it to save your own life, not anybody else's. That's mostly why I write. I'm not trying to change anybody else's life or the world; I'm trying to keep from blowing my own brains out. That's the real point." -- Guy Clark
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Sabina » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:49 pm

Yes, definitely, like that or very similar.

Here is Yoda's take on it..


Different reasons can lead people to fear, ignorance is definitely one of them.
Being possessive is another one. I am sure there is a nice variety of options which can be an inspiration for fear... It would be good to identify all of them.
Right now there is ignorance and possession. What else?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby mirjana » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:11 am

Sabina wrote:...
Different reasons can lead people to fear, ignorance is definitely one of them.
Being possessive is another one. I am sure there is a nice variety of options which can be an inspiration for fear... It would be good to identify all of them.
Right now there is ignorance and possession. What else?

I think that fear is the result of our uncertainty about self, life, reality, death and many other things. When we are sure about something (or at least we think that we are) there is no fear. As soon as uncertainty appears, fears appear too.
When I look like that at fear, it seems like fear is a kind of protective memory to point us that what we live in is an illusion and the only way that makes it lasting is to have fear of something which is not.
In the topic What Tarot Card are You, I have posted a story about old and young lion.
It is an illustration for that how fear (not based on anything specifically), changes us and our perception of reality.
If we put together this story with Plato's Allegory of Cave, then, maybe we get the answer that fear is the basic emotion that makes this reality to exist and if so, then all other emotions are somehow part of it.
Daywhite wrote:
ignorance-->fear-->anger-->hate-->violence.


What I wanted to say is that with awareness about that what the things around us are, there wouldn’t be fear, and according to the line Daywhite gave and Sabina confirmed with Yoda’s words, then we wouldn’t have violence.
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Sabina » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:42 pm

mirjana wrote:I think that fear is the result of our uncertainty about self, life, reality, death and many other things. When we are sure about something (or at least we think that we are) there is no fear. As soon as uncertainty appears, fears appear too.

Mirjana, if uncertainty is one of the things that lead to fear, that would mean that absolutely every person on this planet has fears, or at least a fear. We are not all-knowing, hence we are not certain.
I don't think uncertainty by itself is enough to make anyone fearful.
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Ryan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:14 pm

I am definitely a Star Wars fan and agree with Yoda's outline... but taken into context what Daywhite, Sabina, and Mirjana have said...

If I think about it "uncertainty" actually could be explained as being "ignorance"...
Dictionary.com wrote:uncertain –adjective
    1. not definitely ascertainable or fixed, as in time of occurrence, number, dimensions, or quality.
    2. not confident, assured, or free from hesitancy: an uncertain smile.
    3. not clearly or precisely determined; indefinite; unknown: a manuscript of uncertain origin.
    4. vague; indistinct; not perfectly apprehended: an abstruse novel with uncertain themes.
    5. subject to change; variable; capricious; unstable: a person of uncertain opinions.
    6. ambiguous; unreliable; undependable: Her loyalties are uncertain.
    7. dependent on chance or unpredictable factors; doubtful; of unforeseeable outcome or effect.
    8. unsteady or flickering, as light; of changing intensity or quality.
Dictionary.com wrote:ignorant –adjective
    1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
    2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
    3. uninformed; unaware.
    4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
They seem pretty similar to me... the problem is probably with the perception of the word "ignorant" in that most see it as a negative or condescending term.

Sabina saying she definitely sees that fear plays a role in it all... and I agree with that assessment as well.

So... the question actually boils down to whether or not all fears are based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of some sort... right?

If we think that fears should be "faced" and through doing so we overcome our fears... Then that would, in the very least, show that through the act of "facing" our fears, our eyes are opened to come to a realization, and through that no longer be ignorant. That it all wasn't as bad as we imagined.

So, maybe the next step would be to come up with fears that we do not think is based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of something?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Daywhite » Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:52 pm

You said it precisely, Ryan, as far as Sabina's and Mirjana's use of uncertainty. I think uncertainty can definitely be explained as ignorance. As you say, ignorant, though seen as such, isn't, always, at least, meant as a negative or condescending term. Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge of something, and, as Sabina says about uncertainty, we are all ignorant of something; no one knows everything.

In writing of fear born of ignorance, I was saying really any fear. Many people fear snakes, but only the people who don't know much about snakes. People who know snakes, working with them everyday, don't fear them. They respect them, understand them, but they don't fear them. If someone is afraid to go for a walk in the dark, they're not afraid of the dark itself; they can see the dark; they know it's there. But, they don't know what could be hidden in the dark, whether a deep hole they could fall in, or someone in the dark waiting to attack them. That's why I say the fear is based in ignorance. If one understands snakes, which are poisonous, which are not, the best way to handle them, then what's to fear. If you can see all around you, see where the deep holes may be, or the attacker hiding, you don't fear; you're aware, but not fearful.

Maybe that's why when someone has a sudden realization, a sudden truth they were unaware of before, it's called a light bulb moment. I was in the darkness of ignorance, but suddenly the light came on. Knowledge defeated the ignorance.

Love your suggestion, Ryan, "...maybe the next step would be to come up with fears that we do not think is based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of something?" Any suggestions, anyone?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Sabina » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:01 pm

Daywhite wrote:Love your suggestion, Ryan, "...maybe the next step would be to come up with fears that we do not think is based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of something?" Any suggestions, anyone?

I already mentioned in my first reply that I think possession, as in being possessive, to be one of those fears. I don't think being possessive can be explained with ignorance, but maybe someone cares to enlighten me as to how it could be connected to ignorance....

Is the fear of being alone based on ignorance as well?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby mirjana » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:41 pm

Sabina wrote:
Daywhite wrote:Love your suggestion, Ryan, "...maybe the next step would be to come up with fears that we do not think is based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of something?" Any suggestions, anyone?

I already mentioned in my first reply that I think possession, as in being possessive, to be one of those fears. I don't think being possessive can be explained with ignorance, but maybe someone cares to enlighten me as to how it could be connected to ignorance....

Is the fear of being alone based on ignorance as well?

I think that people who are possessive are frightened to lose someone because they lack a self-confident (they are uncertain about themselves, 0), their qualities and if they have enough of that what the other one would love in them).
The same is with the fear to be alone. Again the lack of self-confidence.

Ryan wrote:...
So, maybe the next step would be to come up with fears that we do not think is based upon an ignorance (uncertainty) of something?

Good suggestion!
If the child is born innocent and fearless, and there are many hypothesis that say so, then fear can appear as a result of permanent and repetitive bad experience connected with different kinds of tortures so that based on that the person develops fear from certain kind of people, situations, circumstances all based on personal associations connected with bad experiences.
Or fearless person experience something terrible and from then on everything that associates to that provokes fear of the repeating experience.
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Ryan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:04 pm

Mirjana wrote:If the child is born innocent and fearless, and there are many hypothesis that say so, then fear can appear as a result of permanent and repetitive bad experience connected with different kinds of tortures so that based on that the person develops fear from certain kind of people, situations, circumstances all based on personal associations connected with bad experiences.
Or fearless person experience something terrible and from then on everything that associates to that provokes fear of the repeating experience.


I am not sure what fear (or fears) you are talking about... would you define the specific fear (or fears) so that we can consider it or them?
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Re: Step by Step

Postby Sabina » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:14 pm

Sabina wrote:Is the fear of being alone based on ignorance as well?
mirjana wrote:The same is with the fear to be alone. Again the lack of self-confidence.

Mirjana, I disagree. You are only talking about the fear of being alone in connection with the fear of not finding a partner, a mate.
Also, let us completely disregard the possessiveness for a moment, I am not connecting the two at all. Take only the fear of being alone.

A person who is comfortable with being by themselves wouldn't have a fear of being alone. I think it can also be as simple as that.
In that sense the fear of being alone doesn't necessarily have to do with ignorance.
What if someone is just boring and they need others to entertain them? So they are afraid of being alone because they would die of boredom if they were alone. It's not a matter of self-confidence... they know themselves pretty well and they just are that boring.

Or, someone could have a fear of being alone because of a disability, a physical disability for instance. They need someone to help them day to day, so they are afraid of being alone for very practical reasons.

Could it not be one of those reasons as well? Wouldn't that mean that the fear is not necessarily based on ignorance?
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