Page 1 of 2

People and Guns

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:55 pm
by Ryan
As a result of diving into [url=]my thoughts on perfection, balance, and harmony with our environment[/url] I have been following its validity into other areas of life and the whole "guns don't kill people, people kill people" thing popped into play. I think mainly because of the [url=]chimpanzee video[/url].

In this video, the behavior is probably explained by most as being primitive, animalistic, and territorial. And while I can agree to a point, and beyond any doubt understand the viewpoint, I believe their way to be more humane because it is a face to face, hand to hand, confrontation. And, their Territoriality plays the role of population control in the way of causing death, and by limiting the available living space... which, as a result, also is a means for not exhausting the resources of an area.

If I ask as to the purpose of a gun, bow and arrow or slingshot, it is my understanding it is a tool with which one may easier and from a greater distance kill something. I believe that would be an accurate and fair explanation of their purpose. Some would say it is too simplistic... maybe... but in my opinion in "peeling an onion" that is what you are trying to do... bring things down to their most simplistic reasons. Isn't simply having a tool that's sole purpose is to kill kind of weird?

As a response others will try to back up with the "peeling of that onion" and explain that it's not simply a tool for killing, you can also use it for sportive target shooting where nothing at all is killed... OK. I've done it as well... but that isn't why guns are made and bought by the majority.

Some would say, well guns are good for hunting animals. Today? Yes, I know lots of people that have deep freezers filled with squirrel, deer, rabbit, and possibly a turkey here or there that they have killed... but that number of people is very, very low in compared to the number of guns that are made, sold and/or bought. And even so... how sporting is that? A squirrel is in its element, effortlessly running along a branch headed to its favorite pecan tree or back to its nest and out of nowhere... it is penetrated by 20 to 30 little steel balls and knocked out of the tree. He didn't have a chance... where's the sport? That is like a group of muscled up 20 year old guys playing American football with 3 year old boys. I can hear the commentator now...
[quote]That's right ladies and gentlemen! it's sure to prove to be an exciting game tonight! We have last year's champions the Memphis Monsters defending their title against the Tampa Bay Toddlers!
I don't get the sport part of it... maybe the sport and the challenge to the one carrying the gun is that they can walk around or sit there long enough that a specific animal crosses their path?

And for the last legal usage of guns... that being of war... I personally like the chimpanzees' way. I think if you are going to do it, you should be able to experience it first hand. Be able to beat that person to the ground. Feel their bones break, the pain as your own break as result of punching them. Watch their face turn red and blue as you strangle them... I think that guns just allow us to distance ourselves from what is actually being done, leave a higher chance that we are not hurt in our attempt to kill another, and makes it easier to kill for more reasons than what is absolutely necessary.

In closing I would like to apply all this to more things... I am discovering that more of these wonderful developments that we have so ingeniously created as proofs of our superior intellect. As [url=]Clay referenced the seven sins as a base for his own gauge[/url] as to what he has noticed gets him into conflict with his surroundings. I think that these tools only make it easier for us to reach the levels of extremes of those "sins" and our dependency and support that they are proof for our superiority and of being civil creatures makes it more difficult for us to see the reality and become more in tuned and harmonious with our surroundings.

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:50 pm
by mirjana
Interesting question. Why? Because for me the answer is so obvious that it even does not deserve the question. Guns and other tools of that kind serve for killing. Only that as an answer would be enough.
But, I can imagine that putting such a question was because there are people who would say that my answer is too simple.
Actually, I am curious to understand if I understood correctly the purpose of this topic. For me the main message of it is in the following words
I think that guns just allow us to distance ourselves from what is actually being done, leave a higher chance that we are not hurt in our attempt to kill another, and makes it easier to kill for more reasons than what is absolutely necessary.
If so, then it would be interesting to discover what are all other tools we use in order to make easier our acting from the distance.

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:59 pm
by Sabina
Many people see it that guns aren't bad.. it's the people and what they do with them. It's actually quite a common outlook on guns. It makes sense to a certain degree, but as Ryan elaborated nicely, when you think it all through, it doesn't really make sense.

As for the part about distancing ourselves through tools, yes, it could be interesting to explore that as well, but the thing is.. most tools don't have a deadly purpose. Guns do.


Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:30 am
by mirjana
For me weapon belong to the threatening tools that serve for killing, fear spreading and power taking.
I can understand that there are people who think differently, as we have wars. But, it only makes the proof about their primary purpose more valid. =0(

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:02 am
by Metatron
Come on, certainly we can do better than throw our guilt onto something inanimate? Guns cannot be bad, they don't have a brain of their own. There really are only bad intentions and guns are simply a tool to achieve someone's goal. And as long as there is another purpose for a tool, it cannot be labeled as bad. Surely shooting nonliving targets out of fun is not what they are most commonly used for, but why is it so? It could very well be the case that only a small percentage of people would use guns for killing. How about bows, crossbows or basically anything that can be used to cause damage? We can say that primarily, guns were made for killing, but what prevents us from using it only for fun? That is like saying baseball bats are good because primarily they were made for sports, but they can still be used to smash someone's head.

let me present this situation: you're a cop, you see that a man has grabbed a woman from behind and put a knife to her throat. The man hasn't noticed you. What do you do? Take your gun and shoot that son of a ... , maybe just in the leg, or both legs. It would not kill him, yet it would be enough for him to release the woman. There we go, we used the deadly function of the gun, yet no one got killed, quite the opposite, you have saved someone's life.

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:25 am
by Ryan
I don't put any blame upon the inanimate object. I am simply saying that this tool's sole purpose is to make killing easier. Whether it is a gun, bow and arrow, or slingshot.

If a guy puts a knife up to a woman's throat there are bigger problems than how to disarm him and save the woman. And by having a gun to disarm him simply allows the problem to persist rather than addressing the root of problem as to why the guy picked up the knife and threatened to kill an innocent woman in the first place.

The extreme incident of the man threatening to kill a woman is a sign for us to examine things. If it is easier to simply disarm the man and punish him rather than to actually address the problem as to why he is doing it... then the problem persists and probably get worse...

Like serial killings... why should they just blatantly do it out in the open and get shot when they have a higher chance of getting away with it if they do it secretively. But regardless that they are trying to do it secretly they generally always leave a clue as to who they are and why they are doing it... because, as I stated, it is a sign that there is a deeper problem and they want it addressed. So they want to get caught and they want to bring attention to the problem... but they don't want to die... otherwise they wouldn't carry things to extremes. They would simply kill themselves...

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:44 am
by GenerousGeorge
[size=200][color=#ce2b2b]I HATE GUNS!! [/color][/size]

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:30 am
by Ryan
[quote="George"]I HATE GUNS!!

Forgive me, but I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious... I can understand both... so I am confused.

[quote="Mirjana"]If so, then it would be interesting to discover what are all other tools we use in order to make easier our acting from the distance.
[quote="Sabina"]As for the part about distancing ourselves through tools, yes, it could be interesting to explore that as well, but the thing is.. most tools don't have a deadly purpose. Guns do.

Yes, but I am trying to drag this into a further level where we aren't just referring to tools that support killing. Like refrigerators... LOL... Ok it is funny, but if you put deep thought into it, it supports and makes possible greed and gluttony. George... I don't want to bring in the church or religion I am simply taking this from a stand point where Clay had mentioned he noticed these are valid points to where he noticed he was in conflict with other people in his surroundings. I mean if we see that because we can keep food for weeks or months because we have refrigerators (not even to mention how much energy they consume, or what they do to the environment through their use of fluorocarbons as refrigerants) we have imprisoned other living creatures and sentenced them to death for us to eat. And because we have distanced ourselves from every aspect of this, meaning most of us have never killed, skinned and cleaned an animal in our lives... and it makes it very easy just to see that piece of meat lying on the plate as an inanimate object and toss it in the trash... so... not only was this animal imprisoned, sentenced to death, it wasn't even used to it's fullest... the majority of this animal finds it's way into the trash and/or in the best case scenario becomes dog or cat food.

If we actually had to go out and kill a cow and butcher it... we would use every single bit of that cow, and we used to do so. First there were ice boxes, and that was OK, people were still raising and killing only what they needed, but if their family wasn't big enough and they slaughtered a cow they used to have to give most of it away, or dry it smoke cure it... now they could keep it cool in their ice box. Not bad... but it just made things easier to develop to the extremes they are today...

Don't get me wrong... I am not trying to say we should all stop using refrigerators, and I am not saying that tools that make life easier are bad. What I am saying is that they have contributed to our laziness and our blindness to what all is actually behind these things. Maybe we should all take our children, and ourselves, to a slaughter house and let them watch a cow going through... "the process"... and see how that affects us the next time we just want to toss the rest of that burger in the trash...

If things were twisted a bit and there was an animal on this planet that was more powerful than ourselves... and they began to round us up and stick us in fences (like Hitler did with the Jews). We would say that is wrong... we should be allowed to be free! We are people for goodness sake!... so? They are Cows! Chickens! Turkeys! Buffalo! (That we simply ran over cliffs and killed off by the thousands for our trains... transportation...) for goodness sake!! Yes, but we are special...? We were given this right to use them as we please, right? So we have been given the right to imprison and sentence all living things on this planet to death and make so little of their death? Hmmm... I don't think so... I believe we have the right to use them all... I don't believe we were given the right to misuse them all. I believe they were given the right to use us as well.

I am saying we are dumbing ourselves down... most have no idea... some kids have never seen a real live cow up close. They've just seen pictures. Again tools that allow us to distance ourselves from things... these tools that allow us to be ignorant to things... I think... and maybe I am wrong... the saying "Ignorance is bliss"... definitely holds water, but I think most of us would agree that simply turning a blind eye to some things and simply focusing on the positive to which we choose to be witness will not change those other things for the better.

I am not suggesting a way to do this... I would like to be able to do that... I am just trying to consider the implications and the depth at which this all goes. How far does the rabbit hole go? We have built a fantasy world and a lot of us are fairly ignorant to a lot of things and comfortable with that... and we blindly support them because we just don't know any better... Most of us now days never actually saw an ice box where things were chilled with a block of ice... and there will come a time when, although we will be able to recall its existence, the whole connection and how exactly that changed things for us and the plants and animals in our surroundings will have been completely forgotten... ignorance is bliss.... things have just always been that way... have they? And which approach was honestly better for all in our surroundings rather than just us?

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:36 am
by Ryan
[quote="GenerousGeorge"][size=200][color=#ce2b2b]I HATE GUNS!! [/color][/size]

Not to condemn your words, but for me this is again an extreme, but mabe an extreme in the other direction is needed to bring balance to the "I LOVE GUNS!!!" folks.

I believe if guns were used in moderation and only for the purpose of hunting for survival... they would be a more positive tool and no one would have a problem with them.

Here's a suggestion... if there were to be a law that if you kill something with a gun, bow and arrow, slingshot, or explosive device... you have to eat it... that would be a good deterrent... So, don't outlaw guns, don't outlaw wars or anything like that... but if you kill something you have to eat it!

Re: People and Guns

PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:53 am
by GenerousGeorge
I have shot the last gun I will ever shoot. I really am not against guns for sporting purposes, or even defense I guess, but I had all I want from both ends.