Money

What should the ideal community or society be like?
Thoughts and ideas on making the utopian idea reality.

Re: Money

Postby mirjana » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Imagine such a start, all people around are equal as nobody has anything except self. "Lost" was not a bad illustration for that point of view - an equal start at the very same place of a group of different people.
The real answer starts with answering the question how different we personally are. In such situation people are differently courageous to dare, not anxious to start something that will bring change, differently capable to improvise in the situation in order to make it livable. From such start where it is obvious that people are different and that they differently take or judge the abilities of others, all problems of further organization start. Somebody who is lethargic and will not do anything could appear to be, maybe, very critical or even destructive in regard to somebody else who is dynamic and starts with some doings. Without doing everything stays. Even if it would be sufficient to lie under the tree, fish and have water close to the place, there are many things to be organized in order not to have chaos. Even animals are organized in their communities. What Ryan has said about natural trade was a thought to say that people exchange personal abilities, goods or whatever based on personal agreements without third parts to interfere. I understood it that way. I also think that it is so. But, because it is so, we come to the point that if somebody gives a certain value to her/his ability to do something better than the other and in mutual exchange says that building somebody else's house (because the other one does not know to do that) is worth x times more than something else, then it is the necessity of the one who is in need the base for the agreement. Unfortunately the one who cares more for something to have is always the one who in any agreement pays more. Then appears the one who doesn't build or raise animals (eggs, food...), but is good in mediating between people for situation where two thinks differently and need an agreement. Such one offers this service and the process of the third part started.
Money is an expression of the ability to do things alone as well as how one refers to the so called third party. It is a final result of this and it is made by people. It is not an energy that was just sent from somebody to us. We created it as a result of our communication in regulating all aspects of our lives. And of course, as anything else, the evolution of this creation could have taken one course which was not necessarily to be the one it is now, but again, we, people allowed it to happen. How? Our conformability and ignorance toward many things during their forming in the beginning, allowed them to grow. It is in human's nature not to look at the problem until it becomes personal. And then when it is personal, it is too late to do anything. Fear not to react at the very first thing which is not OK but not necessarily connected to us personally is the cause for many problems as it allows not correct things to grow. I think that the critical mass is the key and our decision to which critical mass we want to belong.
Even when something turns not to be good the way it is, take it money to be that, it is again people who can change it the same way they created it. And we are again at the beginning. Somebody else is more capable or whatever and because of that more efficient in doing, leading, forming and using things the way they do. Less capable, with less opened mind, with less opened eyes, therefore more fearful, those are supporters and followers not realizing that exactly they are also going to be the first victims. So we come to the beginning. What Ryan posted here: peeling-the-onion-by-sesame-street-t330.html is great example for this circular happening all around us. The funny thing is that we are not aware that each of us on some level contribute to some things to make them circulating.
Therefore, again in this topic as in many others, changes in life are possible only if we personally are ready and capable to change. As it is not quite a common thing, the manifestation of such approach takes warning forms. As less people do not recognize that, staying firmed in their formed opinions and approaches (cause), more effects (lessons) around us and worse - will show until we become ready or aware to do something to change it.
Last edited by mirjana on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Money

Postby Sabina » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Randall, since everything is energy, so is money.
Like I said, so are weapons, so is anger, so are a lot of things.
Saying that money is energy means absolutely nothing, it's circular.

Why is it an issue for me...
I am considering whether to write a short or a long answer.
It is not because I have financial problems. I am well positioned "inside the machine" to be filthy rich if I only choose to be that... it's just a choice. I keep choosing not to, because of many reasons. I have also managed to never enter the machine all the way, in order to keep at least a part of my true self forever.

I will think about the simplest way to explain this... in the mean time, I would recommend listening to and watching the Pink Floyd songs I posted in the Arts forum.

Sabina

PS: Mirjana wrote: "The funny thing is that we are not aware that each of us on some level contribute to some things to make them circulating."
That has something to do with what I have to say. The power of one, the power of a few, etc. It has to start somewhere. Saying "this is the system we have now, it's not perfect, but oh well" or anything in that direction is only giving up the power we have. And we do have the power to change things... each one of us does.
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Re: Money

Postby Ryan » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:01 pm

Elie Wiesel wrote:Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies.


George Bernard Shaw wrote:Indifference is the essence of inhumanity.


Henry David Thoreau wrote:After the first blush of sin comes its indifference.


Helen Keller wrote:Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all -- the apathy of human beings.


Richard Dawkins wrote:The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
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Re: Money

Postby Randall » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:11 pm

Saying that money is energy means absolutely nothing, it's circular.


I disagree... it means everything. We give form to energy. This site you have created isnt free. You had to pay for it didnt you? What you have done with the energy of money in this case serves your ideology and beliefs... maybe even your hopes and desires?

At the core its all love right? if that is true... its our choices that make something what it is. Is the atom to be faulted for its destructive nature? Should we ignore its creative abilities and focus on its destructive capacity? Or is an atom just an atom... and its how we inter-act with the atom that gives us some feeling as to its value?

Is it our perception of inequality that gives money a bad name? What we DO with it?

Inequality is a perception of man and we create that with in our society. Money isn't the issue.. at least to me... its our fear that lays at the core it. Our Utopia will never be realized until we have found that we no longer need to live and create from fear.... but rather from the fullness of understanding.... Love.

I prefer to change the rules in my mind... instead of focusing on the fear, focus on the possibilities.

Transmute fear consciousness into abundance consciousness. Abundance in all things. ;) its a good theory any way.. at least I like it... and am having fun with it.
מלכות השמים היא עם ב לך
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Re: Money

Postby Ryan » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:15 pm

This site didn't cost any money, only time.
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Re: Money

Postby Pat » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:56 pm

I like the oriental view of money ... it is just another form of energy . We exchange energy for energy.
The native Americans traded goods and had no need for money.

Money is just a place marker for a certain amount of what ? Energy.
Modern finances are not this simple it is all just a house of cards as we saw this past year or so.
Money has connotations of evil but it is simple a way of exchanging energy it is how w e use it and accumulate it that causes the problems.
:)
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Re: Money

Postby Ryan » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:02 pm

Money has always been and always will be a means with which to suppress and control people. It was developed so the lazy, needy, fruitless individuals of society can rise above those enslaved masses who actually create the means for the elite few to not only survive but to prosper.
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Re: Money

Postby Sabina » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:02 pm

"Today, nobody sees, or wishes to see, that in our time the enslavement of the majority of men is based on money taxes, levied on land and otherwise, which are collected by government from the subjects."
Leo Tolstoy


"Money has in our time completely lost that desirable significance as a representative of labour; such a significance it has only exceptionally, for as a general rule it has become a right or a possibility for exploiting the labour of others.

The dissemination of money, or credit, and of all kinds of monetary tokens more and more confirms this meaning of money. Money is the possibility or the right to exploit the labours of others. Money is a new form of slavery, which differs form the old only in being impersonal, and in freeing people from all the human relations of the slave."

Leo Tolstoy
From What Shall We Say? in the "Complete Works of Leo Tolstoy"


What do you think about this?

Sabina
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Re: Money

Postby Sabina » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:19 pm

Here is something for you to think about... food for thought...

Money is energy. Yes?
Great. Let's roll with that.
And only what we do with it matters, right?
It doesn't matter where it comes from, it doesn't matter how the accumulation of money has severely damaged the energy of millions of others... right?
It's all good....
It also doesn't matter if you live in the most aggressive country in the world...
By living in that country you are pouring money back into that country... you are supporting its economy and its policies... you are supporting the energy it spreads across the world...
It's all good...
It's just energy...
There is no good or bad energy... it's all just energy.
Anyone whose choice is that - to live there, to support it with your work and your money, anyone who does that has to explain it that way, otherwise what does it make them?

Because if it's not just energy... if it matters where it comes from and how it is accumulated, then we are in deep shit with the choices we make...
So hey, let's just give up our power, let's give up our contribution, and we'll call it all energy, and it's all good...
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Re: Money

Postby Metatron » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:38 pm

I didn't read all of the posts here, just briefly a few of them and I noted to myself that Randall said something very similar to what I've had in mind. Money is not a negative thing, just as there are no bad words, no bad weapons... Actually, nothing inanimate can ever be bad. There is only bad intention and tools used to achieve one's goal (that's why I say thoughts stand higher than any weapon in the world). Money can and is certainly one of such tools, but it is not unique in this sense.

We can imagine what the world would be like without money and to do so, we have to consider all the different mindsets of the world. There are humans who think material wealth is more important than spiritual (shocking, I know :P), so even if money suddenly disappeared from the world (and if it didn't exist at all, someone would invent it - it has happened in the past as we all know :P ), it would not solve anything. Why? :) For the most obvious reasons... Simply put, chaos.

I am writing a fantasy novel which is based on afterlife, the Garden of Eden etc... My image of afterlife, or utopia, is that spirits are creatures who don't age, can create whatever they want out of nothing (if they know it's true nature) and thus, money is completely unnecessary. People have a crapload of time on their hands, so there is no need for violence, because everyone can get what they want.

Yeah, this is still based on material wealth.

After seeing my phone, Sabina and Ryan both know that some degree of material wealth is important to me. But hey, different people, different values :P

So, money is not really the source of people's problems. It's just what those problems are reflected upon, in reality the battle is going on in people's hands, most of us want to have more than others, money is just kind of a victim. Let's say someone throws a pebble at a vase. Who or what broke the vase? The pebble...or the one who threw it? :P If you wanna get rid of problems associated with money, get rid of people... :D
Who the hell is it you try to impress?

All you have to do is learn to care less!
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