Lifeboat - Judgment

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Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Sabina » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:00 am

Here is a moral dilemma based on an actual case from 1842...

A ship struck an iceberg and more than 30 survivors were crowded into a lifeboat intended to hold 7. As the rain and the waves worsened it became obvious to the captain that the lifeboat would have to be lightened if anyone were to survive. The captain and other seaman threw 14 men and two women overboard. They chose single men only (the married ones were spared) and the 2 women requested to go overboard because one of the 14 men was their brother. None of the crew was thrown out.

The captain reasoned that the right thing to do in this situation was to sacrifice some people in order to keep the lifeboat from capsizing. He reasoned that if he hadn't done anything, then everyone would anyway die.
If he did throw people overboard, then those that remained had a chance of survival, were his thoughts.

The survivors were rescued the following day and the captain was tried for his action.

Questions:
- If you had been on the jury, how would you have judged the captain's actions?
- What would have been your decision in his place?

Sabina
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Ryan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:43 am

I don't know the charges against him so I can't say whether or not I would have found him guilty or innocent... but I would say that it seems he did the best he could in the situation... although I don't know all the details of the situation. You know, he kept the crew because out of service they enforced his decisions and therefore was able to keep things from getting out of control, or whatever...

As for my decision... I really can not give you one because I don't have enough information...if I couldn't makeshift a means to stabilize the lifeboat and keep everyone in the boat, people would certainly have to get out of the boat... and more than likely I would just start with the heaviest people... I understand that the water is cold, but they could still hang on to the outside of the boat to help keep them afloat or hopefully I could find a way to lash some debris together to assist in keeping them out of the water altogether.

It's a tough one. Definitely a location situation...
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Sabina » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 pm

Never mind what the exact charges were against him. The question is rather if he was, in your and others' opinion, guilty of any crime, and if yes, then which.

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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby mirjana » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:35 pm

There is an old Indian proverb that says: "never judge another before spending three weeks at least in his/her moccasin."
I do not know how we can imagine the whole situation not being present.
Normally is the captain who goes with a ship making other people more place to survive. The strange thing was to keep himself and the whole crew that was with him.
Another thing which is not clear is how far was the situation about thinking that the boat will not stand the number of people, specially when put into the correlation of the fact that they were saved the next day.
Not knowing that, it is hard to say. If he had supposed the whole surviving chances based on the information about the capacity of the boat, although it was the very beginning of being in the new circumstance and nothing has already shown this danger I would judge his reaction as too fast. If it was really necessary in order to safe others, I do not know what was the principle, as Ryan´s logic is not bad in that sense. I would also make possible stronger men to be in the water but connected with the boat, and alternating with others in order to get chances to survive.
The crucial part that is missing is how many of crew members were there and was it possible to give a commando to some of them and personally be one of those who was left in the sea.
Because we wouldn´t have this puzzle to solve then.

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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Sabina » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:00 pm

mirjana wrote:There is an old Indian proverb that says: "never judge another before spending three weeks at least in his/her moccasin."


I have to add the following text, at this possibly unsuitable moment. I hope you don't mind...

Before you criticize someone,
you should walk a mile in their shoes.

That way, when you criticize them,
you're a mile away -
and you have their shoes.

:)
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Alvino » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:24 am

Mr. Ryan,

hello and I VOTE FOR SABINA = nevermind the charges=
LIFE IS SIMPLE =do not make it complicated = in other way to say this
is YOU ARE THE BOSS you decide the charges.

second : I GIVE LESSONS ON HOW TO PRETEND = this skill
will help you to KNOW THE CHARGES = you can PRETEND to know them

LIFE IS SIMPLE.
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Alvino » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:38 am

OK RYAN lesson number one in the Art of pretending to KNOW WHAT WE DO NOT KNOW:

THE charge was he MURDERED THE WRONG PEOPLE:
He threw the FAT ONES OVERBOARD.. this is entirely
wrong thinking because the weather was cold (again Pretend to know )
and they had little source of warmth WE ALL will agree PLEASENTLY PLUMP
humans give MORE warmth to each other then skinny folks.
This fact would find him GUILTY of murdering the Wrong Humans.

to ensure the Jury will convict = WE all know THERE was a 82 percent
it would be a long time before they were rescue arrived.
FACT fat folks will live a LOT longer without Food then skinny folks
so again based on the this two facts saved HE again murdered the wrong people =
when he threw the HEAVY ones out that RYAN would have thrown out.

Ryan please practIce PRETENDing to KNOW the facts and the truth
= pretend the PROSECUTER S claims
are KORRECT so you would also find him GUILTY , etc. THANKS

whisper RYAN I tell folks Never believe me but to YOU, i say,
please practice PRETENDING by PRETENDING I DID not give you this advice.
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Alvino » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:46 am

WHISPER: Sabina , like I suggested to George Sinning is FUN.

Your way SOUNDS LIKE A VERY , VERY WISE method
of criticizing someone with a POSSIBLE mean temper
and STEALING someone's shoes according to the STYLE YOU USED you used makes it Sound like stealng this guy's SHOES
in the Manner that you did as BEING A LOT OF FUN.

Folks, i was only Joking about SINNING is fun but Thanks to Sabina's wisdom (or suggestion)
I may have been korrect.
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:14 am

Alvino wrote:Your way SOUNDS LIKE A VERY , VERY WISE method
of criticizing someone with a POSSIBLE mean temper
and STEALING someone's shoes according to the STYLE YOU USED you used makes it Sound like stealng this guy's SHOES
in the Manner that you did as BEING A LOT OF FUN.


Hello Alvino,

Reading your answer made me think that I should be more careful with my jokes. You see, I was certain that it was clear that the text was a joke.
The first part is a regular expression:

Before you criticize someone,
you should walk a mile in their shoes.


It's wise advice, which suggests that it's easy to talk when you haven't been in the same situation.
The second half of my comment was a play on the first part. Taking it out of its original context and placing the same statement into a new one. Adding the second sentence seems to change the meaning of the first:

Before you criticize someone,
you should walk a mile in their shoes.

That way, when you criticize them,
you're a mile away -
and you have their shoes.


It's like an alternate explanation on why the first statement and sentence is wise, additionally to its original intention, however the alternate explanation is a joke. The fact that it makes logical sense as a continuation makes it (for me) only funnier.

Sabina
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Re: Lifeboat - Judgment

Postby Ryan » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:17 am

To clarify my statement:
the question as Sabina wrote:- If you had been on the jury, how would you have judged the captain's actions?


Ryan wrote:I don't know the charges against him so I can't say whether or not I would have found him guilty or innocent...


If I would have been on the jury, that would mean I would have to judge the captain's actions in connection with the charges against him... not make up my own charges and judge him based upon those.

Sabina wrote:Never mind what the exact charges were against him. The question is rather if he was, in your and others' opinion, guilty of any crime, and if yes, then which.
Again, to judge whether or not he is guilty of "any crime" I would have to know the details of the situation... did he keep the crew with him because he needed their support in his decisions and to help him keep the situation under control as there were too many passengers for him to do it by himself... or did he do it simply because he knew the crew members and their family and he cared more about them than the passengers? In any case with my view point that guilt is a matter the captain has to deal with not me, then it does not matter what I think. BUT!! Guilty of "any crime" would insinuate social standards and man's law so... if he kept the crew to help enforce his decision to keep the peace and therefore increase the chances of everyone's survival...not guilty... If he chose the crew over the passengers because of familiarity... guilty.

Alvino, the situation at hand for the captain was a matter of weight. The life boat had too many people and with the size of the waves the boat was in danger of being tipped over and therefore everyone would be in the water. The captain had to make a decision based upon those circumstances not one based upon chances of surviving a long period of time without food nor freezing to death. So by simple logics, by removing the heaviest people from the boat he could keep more people in the boat therefore increasing the chances of the majority surviving. The fatter people would also have the highest chance of survival in the very cold water (not pretending because we know they hit an iceberg) because they would be better insulated against the cold.

I don't have a problem with pretending, but I am guessing that Sabina wanted a serious answer to this seemingly moral dilemma. For me to assume, I don't like to ASSUME things because it generally always makes an A S S out of U and M E , then the sky is the limit. Why not just pretend that the people he threw out of the life boat were picked up by a humpback whale and carried to the North Pole where they met Santa Clause and all his elves over a wonderful cup of hot chocolate? Where does it get us? I can pretend and ASSUME hundreds of possibilities, my imagination is not limited and therefore I can give you an almost infinite number of responses to every dilemma that is not clearly defined, but how productive would that be?
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