Lie and Falsehood

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Lie and Falsehood

Postby mirjana » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:50 am

Sabina mentioned King Lear in another topic ( What we do shows who we are ), after that posting the story of The king and three sons in the Witticism forum, what brings me to the meaning of lie or falsehood. It seems that we are circling around this in many topics here.
What is that about the lie that makes it present all around?
Does a lie have only negative connotations or is it possible to be put into a positive one as well?
Your thoughts?

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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby Ryan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:55 pm

I believe to answer that, one would have to be aware of every consequential possibility of having told the lie in contrast to not having told the lie... BUT!

I am assuming that you are taking into consideration the of telling of a lie in order to protect someone from something, yes?

In my opinion I would have to sincerely ask who exactly is being protected? The one to whom the lie is being told so they won't hurt from the information you are keeping secret... or is the lie actually protecting the person who has the information from either feeling guilty of being the "bearer of bad news" or dealing with the hurting individual and how their pain may hurt them as well...

I think facing the things that will cause us pain and/or suffering helps us grow and become stronger and by lying to a person neither protects them or helps them but instead only protects the individual telling the lie but by viewing it as a form of protection of another they justify the selfish protection of themselves.
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby mirjana » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:31 pm

Ryan wrote:I believe to answer that, one would have to be aware of every consequential possibility of having told the lie in contrast to not having told the lie... BUT!

I am assuming that you are taking into consideration the of telling of a lie in order to protect someone from something, yes?

In my opinion I would have to sincerely ask who exactly is being protected? The one to whom the lie is being told so they won't hurt from the information you are keeping secret... or is the lie actually protecting the person who has the information from either feeling guilty of being the "bearer of bad news" or dealing with the hurting individual and how their pain may hurt them as well...

I think facing the things that will cause us pain and/or suffering helps us grow and become stronger and by lying to a person neither protects them or helps them but instead only protects the individual telling the lie but by viewing it as a form of protection of another they justify the selfish protection of themselves.


No, Ryan, I was not talking about anything specific, but as said about lie in general and that was the reason I put the question which came as a result of latest discussions. I was curious what will our discussion about lie will bring us having in mind different connotations people give to lie, as to anything else.
The last part in your answer though is for me the answer I agree completely. That opens the next question which is are we able to behave like that all the time? Do you?

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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby Ryan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:58 pm

I behave that way as much as I possibly can... I still have weaknesses and therefore I am still challenged from time to time. I try to "bite the bullet" and just do it and then deal with what follows. Most of the time I find that the anticipation of "what is to come" is worse than the actual result. The best part though is knowing that I haven't avoided anything, I haven't tried to fool myself or others and that I am being the best version of myself as I can be. Without fear, inhibitions or making excuses.

I do not see why we can not behave like that all the time...
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby mirjana » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:07 am

Neither do I, Ryan, but we still do, all of us at least occasionally so that we know what we are talking about. ;0)
Last night I watched again(I think it is my fourth time), "Dead Poet Society". Great movie and I could talk about it the whole night, but better not =0/
I mentioned it because of one of boys who is desperately in love with a girl and scared at the beginning to tell her that, as she is the girl of another guy. But, inspired with the teaching of his professor John Keating, who explained to his students the beauty of Carpe Diem or "Seize the day", he enters her class with flowers and tells his poem of love. When asked from his friends about her reaction, he answered that he didn´t know, but what matters is that he did it.
I can not imagine more illustrative description for your last post and the following words:
"The best part though is knowing that I haven't avoided anything, I haven't tried to fool myself or others and that I am being the best version of myself as I can be."


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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby Alvino » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:26 am

Mirjana, you told us you are being the Best person you can be
at this time.
You are a very wonderful person right now
but my mind says you are going to be even much gooder
person in future days.
Consequently, my eyes would feel joy if I had
read you view as being
YOU are, today , the Best person you -== KNOW - how to be at this time.

Your mind and knowledge as I see it has NOTHING BUT GOOD and
goodness right now so as you UNDERSTAND MORE AND MORE
what you KNOW and experience
YOUR GOODNESS as a human being
and as our friend and HELPER you will become better AND better.
I am certain all your knowledge tells you that
TOmorrow (or next year for some of us)
we all can become better and better - no matter how advanced you are or
we are today..
JUST MY view of your vast knowledge about life and my
view of your chosen life direction, Ms Mirjan.
Thank you for Listening , Ms Mirjana. Thanks
remember Understanding must be attained before Wisdom can be had.
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby mirjana » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:53 am

Alvino wrote:Mirjana, you told us you are being the Best person you can be
at this time.


I didn't. I quoted what Ryan had said as a good illustration for the movie example I had mentioned previously.
mirjana wrote:...
Last night I watched again (I think it is my fourth time), "Dead Poet Society". Great movie and I could talk about it the whole night, but better not
I mentioned it because of one of boys who is desperately in love with a girl and scared at the beginning to tell her that, as she is the girl of another guy. But, inspired with the teaching of his professor John Keating, who explained to his students the beauty of Carpe Diem or "Seize the day", he enters her class with flowers and tells his poem of love. When asked from his friends about her reaction, he answered that he didn´t know, but what matters is that he did it.
I cannot imagine more illustrative description for your last post and the following words:
"The best part though is knowing that I haven't avoided anything, I haven't tried to fool myself or others and that I am being the best version of myself as I can be."

Mirjana

So, not a word about me. Why did you connect these two things with me, is not clear. I would appreciate if you could explain it so that I can understand it. =0)

All other words you wrote to me are based on the first sentence which is a wrong conclusion and therefore I shall not comment it. But, if there is anything that has escaped my understanding, it would be nice if you could make it clearer.
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby clay » Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:10 am

Mirjana, Ryan: an interesting thread. My interest lies along the lines of lies as truth. Seems that most folks lie out of fear of the cost of the truth and as the fear subsides the truth changes. Denial is a major factor and so is people-pleasing, which is dishonest in most cases.
Untruth seems to arise from one of the depths of jealousy,covetousness and greed as well as some other character defects.
I was in a great deal of emotional pain at one polint and needed a counselor who understood me and so I asked the well-recommended person "if we talk today and then we talk again
tomorrow and I see it differently then, will you realize that the truth may be different to me?"He`did and we got along great.
One great way to find it is to talk it over as we are.
Truth is malleable.....
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby mirjana » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:42 pm

Clay,
I like your answer and the thought expressed in the following lines:
"I was in a great deal of emotional pain at one polint and needed a counselor who understood me and so I asked the well-recommended person "if we talk today and then we talk again
tomorrow and I see it differently then, will you realize that the truth may be different to me?"He`did and we got along great.
One great way to find it is to talk it over as we are."
I gave you Kudos for that.
The awareness that life experience changes our approach to life and therefore forms our ideas what our truth about something is, seems very important to me. It confirms open mind and sharing with others on the base of mutual respect in learning and enriching personal life experiences and not considering self as authority of knowing final answers for everything just by birth.
As you said:" One great way to find it is to talk it over as we are."
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Re: Lie and Falsehood

Postby clay » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:42 pm

mirjana wrote:,
" One great way to find it is to talk it over as we are."


Thanks for the kudos, Mirjana. I think untruth cant stand the light of day.
Truth is malleable.....
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