Know your enemy

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Re: Know your enemy

Postby Azur » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:21 pm

A house is not my metaphor for society. I was giving an example of a whole being bigger than the sum of its parts. I already mentioned the difference with the society in an earlier post:

The thing with the humanity is that the individual parts (bricks…) built the house on their own while building themselves in the same time.


Then,
Please explain how you can arrange the individuals differently in order for society to become just a pile of individuals and completely void of society... or explain how to disassemble society to have only individuals?


Well you can't and that's my point! Ayn Rand's theory is that the individual can only develop himself against the society. And reducing the society to the sum of its "rational" individuals is the solution. And I think I explained why I think it's impossible

cheers!
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Re: Know your enemy

Postby Ryan » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:49 pm

I wrote a reply and lost it due to the logged in session timing out... no great deal because as I was taking my son to Jujitsu I had a realization... maybe... I think we are understanding the statement differently...

Maybe you understand it as:
( Society ) (is) ( the Sum of the Individuals within it)
( Society ) ( = ) ( Individual + Individual + Individual )


And I understand it as:
( Society ) ( Is ) ( the Sum of the Individuals within it )
( Society ) ( = ) ( Individuals=((Personality*billions) + (Mentality*billions) + (Emotional*billions) + (Physical*billions) + (Psychological*billions) + (Spiritual*billions) + (Etc.*billions)) )


There isn't anything "more" to a society than what the individuals (past and present) have affected it to have become just as the house is no "more" than the bricks and wood have made it... if you destroy the house and make a pile of bricks and wood the equivalent would be the same as going to the cemetery to view the society there. The arrangement, shape, size, texture, color of wood and bricks would be more comparable to the "living aspects" of people...

As for the Ayn Rand theory...
Ayn Rand's theory is that the individual can only develop himself against the society. And reducing the society to the sum of its "rational" individuals is the solution.

I don't know... To make any sense out of it I can only understand it as:

The individual can only progress positively by rebelling against the negative aspects of society. And through this rebellion they, the rebelling individuals, would help reduce society to the more "rational" aspects of the human psyche.

But as I say... I do not know Ayn Rand's writings and I have only heard the speeches of those two idiots in that video... so I don't really have any ground on which to stand in relation for debating Ayn Rand's theory /theories...

But... as for any philosophical writings... the interpretation is everything... when you mentioned "God created man in his own image" you said it was pretty much nonsense... but for an omniscient being to know how we will evolve and what we will become is one thing... for a person to judge those words as to what we have evolved into so far... falls a little short of proof of anything, right? I mean, each and everyone of us today started out looking not much different from a bean shortly after having been conceived by our parents... didn't we? But to look at us in that stage of metamorphosis and say that the statement "our parents created us in their own image" is not correct... Time would prove differently... wouldn't it?

There are vast worlds of truth between interpretations of any one piece of text... and just because we interpret them a certain way doesn't make the words wrong... just the interpretation...
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
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Re: Know your enemy

Postby Azur » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:36 pm

Hi I’m back from a very nice and relaxing long weekend with friends.

So where were we?

Well I’m afraid I have to disagree again:

Society is not a sum of individuals with their particularities.

Society is individuals (with their particularities) and their interaction. And if the purpose of a house is to be a shelter for human beings the purpose of society is to create common good. Let’s take for example: language, production of food and security as common goods.

Language is a product of society, not an individual creation of some kind. And it’s that particular common good that shapes and defines us as human.

Production of food: an individual could find some food on his own, but hunters, united in groups were able to be more efficient in hunting antelopes and insuring food for the community. Same thing for fruit picking.

Security: a group of humans with pikes, howling and throwing stones could defend themselves against a tiger. Individuals on their own not. Again a common good as a product of society.

Of course there are numerous other examples for this.

But not all products of society are utilitarian. The language for instance is not only used to transmit information. In fact most of the time humans speak for the pleasure of speaking. Because we have the urge to exist, and by communicating with others we see the confirmation of our own existence.

It’s funny how often we speak about weather. Unconsciously we are looking for a confirmation that we all live under the same sky….

As for “God created man in his own image” statement, I do not think it’s nonsense, since it has a sense, a religious one. Until Darwin and all the development in the fields of paleoanthropology and primatology it was the only vision that was available. Now, the results of this scientific research have given us some actual knowledge of how men became men. There are probably many things that we do not know and that will be discovered in the future, but it seems to me that it is by far preferable to : “Anyway it’s God who created it all, so why bother”

Cheers
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Re: Know your enemy

Postby mirjana » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:58 pm

As far as I can follow you two, I do not see disagreement, in spite that Azur pointed disagreement. 80S
Why I do not see it ?

Ryan said:
"The individual can only progress positively by rebelling against the negative aspects of society. And through this rebellion they, the rebelling individuals, would help reduce society to the more "rational" aspects of the human psyche."

Azur said:
" Society is not a sum of individuals with their particularities.
Society is individuals (with their particularities) and their interaction."


Azur´s sentence underlines interaction.
Ryan shows what interaction means. Individuals(rebellions) , being part of the whole, help development (changes) in the society.
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