Justice and Revenge

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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby mirjana » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:40 am

Metatron wrote:...
Nietzsche is weird indeed, but he has some pretty true ideas that simply never cease to fade out or lose on truth, they're like diamonds. Especially the idea about people being sheep who just blindly follow their shepherd. So one of these girls tries to be serious for a moment and she goes: So what if we don't allow them to control us?

So I couldn't resist it anymore and simply said that she's stupid and doesn't even know when she is being controlled, or by whom.

I may have gone a bit off topic (quite a bit actually), but I just wanted to share how shocked I was. The lesson was chaotic, everyone was laughing and making fun of what was said... They were acting exactly like Nietzsche said. Ironic. As long as we have people like this making up society, we're doomed...

David,
I have been following this discussion, having pro and contra in regard to some of points having been said and I shall give my five cents to this topic too. Before that there are some questions:
This class and this girl and your reaction, all is quite confusing for me. Why did you have a need to react like you did, just because she put that question? Wasn't her question at least a moment of different approach than just following the mass? Putting the question gives a chance to find answers and answers then could eventually lead to actions. How otherwise changes would be possible? Why is she stupid for putting a question about something we have been discussing here in this topic as well? Instead to judge her as a stupid, which could result in her withdrawing, by encouraging further discussion about it and pointing the fact how important is at the very first place to be aware by whom we are controlled, you could turn this discussion into one of those that could open eyes of at least of few of your class friends. The main problem is exactly our ironical and arrogant position that we know how things are and that we know that it is not possible to change them. Then, instead to encourage every little step that is moving forward in some of different realizations, we stop it at the very birth making possible the old pattern to last. I think that everyone who is aware of that how something is not good and thinks to know how it should be, should stay for this and use every situation to point it out. Without people with such approach progress wouldn't be possible.

Some of my thoughts about the topic:
There is one typical example of justice and revenge when they take a course without ending. It is a blood feud. It has been present even today in Sicilia and Kosovo. It is when the family takes a justice in the own hand solving the problem of justice by revenge. Of course, when something like that starts it is a long lasting story unless somebody realize the senselessness and stop that. IN that moment another level of consciousness opens between these people and with gratitude and forgiveness many other things become possible. I used to watch one presentation where one of the powerful members of the powerful Sicilian family was talking about that and their decision to stop the line. They realize that acting like that will not bring them back the one they have already lost, but open the way to lose more of family members. They have chosen to stop and to offer a peace. I think that such approach didn't show that they haven't loved the lost member of the family or didn't care for him, but just shows the try to put love and forgiveness instead hate and revenge.
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Sabina » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:32 am

David,
Mirjana has already "scolded you" sufficiently, lol, so I won't even go there. I am curious though, what did the girl (in the philosophy class) reply to your remark?

Metatron wrote:...So it is better to find a middle path... but what would that be? How do you as an individual make an effect big enough to change someone's mind about what they did and at the same time punish them well enough according to what they did?

That is the question...
Another thing about punishment, that I think is important to mention, is that all people learn through being punished is how to avoid punishment... they don't really learn any of the things they really need to learn. Since our society functions on the principle of punishment that explains why nothing is really being accomplished that way, the problem keeps being put aside and postponed or delayed until later. A major change is education is what is needed but where to begin?!
This qualifies as elaboration on the subject though, and is slightly off topic, so focusing on the matter at hand and back to the original question, my answer is that I don't know. I just know that there must be one.

__4__

Mirjana,
just "understanding the criminal" and leaving it at that isn't going to do anyone any good either. To me that kind of sounds like oversimplifying things just in order to gain a temporary comfort.
Imagine a wonderful society.. peaceful people, loving and respecting each other. Perfectly cheesy. And then imagine someone who starts to create havoc within this society. Perhaps small nudges of disruption at first, gradually transforming into mayhem. What should the others do? What if there are several such individuals? What if there are more such individuals than the others?
Imagine a larger society, with courthouses and lawyers. Imagine they are corrupt. Imagine being able to witness the corruption and lack of justice. What would you do?

There are all kinds of injustices possible.
How are you suggesting they should be treated?

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:54 pm

mirjana wrote:David,
I have been following this discussion, having pro and contra in regard to some of points having been said and I shall give my five cents to this topic too. Before that there are some questions:
This class and this girl and your reaction, all is quite confusing for me. Why did you have a need to react like you did, just because she put that question? Wasn't her question at least a moment of different approach than just following the mass?


Now, if it was any other person or if I heard the seriousness in her voice, I would have reacted differently. But I didn't for several reasons: first of all, the whole subject has been talked over in depth on the lesson, but her and her freind's reactions were nothing but laughs; they think we overthink things and create problems that don't exist. My reaction was triggered by anger and annoyment. Second, my classmates don't like it when someone their age tries to seem smarter than them, no matter how right they are. If you try to talk to them about such topics, if you yourself show interest in the topic, you are being laughed at and taken as kissing the teacher's a$$ ⊗. They already think so because our teacher likes me.

To respond to your question Sabina; first she didn't hear what I said, only the teacher heard me. So he said "I think the subject can pretty much be summed up by what David said, please repeat it David." So everyone when kind of silent, while throing at me remarks like "Come on, say it." or "Yeah smartass, tell us." So I just repeated "You don't even know when you're being controlled." and her and some people's reaction was "Oooooooh, yeaaaah, nooow he said it."

I understand your point Mirjana, but I still don't think that my reaction was wrong. There was no new understanding to cultivate here; most of all there was no interest on her side.

Sabina wrote:There are all kinds of injustices possible.
How are you suggesting they should be treated?


Well, I can't really come up with anything either, because it is an incredibly tough subject and there are so many possibilities that can fail on tiny levels that my head is going crazy just by thinking about them. This is seriously beyond me =0X
Who the hell is it you try to impress?

All you have to do is learn to care less!
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby mirjana » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:02 pm

David, thank you for the answer. I can understand how hard it must be in the school today. I still remember how my both daughters used to have hard teenage time in their schools with the average students who were not tolerant toward any kind of resistance to mass flow, and my kids have never had mass logic and behavior. It has always been hard to be different. But, if one is such, it goes with responsibility of personal choice.
Sabina, My answer is almost the same as David's. To answer how injustice should be treated is beyond me. I explained one of possible approaches, which is not to follow revenge. Another will be prevention. The time back I heard that in North Europe, especially Norway, they have invested so much in dental prevention, that curative approach was dramatically reduced. That is how everything should be done.
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Ryan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:01 am

You know... I have been reading over this topic again and again and I don't quite get what exactly we are talking about here. I mean, I know that it is about Justice and Revenge... but I don't understand where the discussion has lead or what the outcome so far is exactly.

For me, justice is a type of revenge but one that is to be in accordance with that which was unjust. The purpose of justice is to help the one to understand just how wrong it was for them to do whatever it is they did. It is an act to help in making a situation better... the situation was made worse by the unjust action... it is our duty to make it better with a just one.

Revenge on the other hand is just about personal gain in reaction to a personal loss... so it is a selfish act. It is not an act which improves anything. It makes the initial unjust act and that person's( or group of people) suffering for nothing. You can argue that the person who committed the unjust act cannot do it again... and I would say "so what" there are hundreds more that will do it again... and there are new ones born every few minutes. Until you address the problem itself rather than just "treating the symptoms" you can keep deleting the organisms that keep pointing at the problem and nothing is going to change... if at all it will only get worse to the point you can't ignore it any longer and by then it will just be that much harder to "cure".

Here is what I see the biggest problem with most "Justice" systems... like everything else it is industrialized to handle things in mass. We all know that people learn things differently... yet again and again we throw everyone into the same pot and try to teach them all the same way. The system doesn't care to teach the lessons... to help anyone understand anything... isn't about health of a society. It is about control... if it is out of control you don't help it learn to do things in a better way... you simply remove it so it can't create any more problems. Again... let's not actually look at the problem, let's not actually deal with it, let's just sweep it under the rug... put it in this box or that corner and carry on looking at the things we want to see... right?
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby GenerousGeorge » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:46 am

That sounds right to me Ryan. ;0)
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby mirjana » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:55 pm

What would be your comment about the video from Cleopatra "Now drink" which is one of video preentations for Cool Movie Scenes?
http://www.deepspirits.com/life-changin ... scenes.php
Is it the proper combination of Justice and Revenge?
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Ryan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 pm

It is just revenge...
Although it was the servant's job to taste things before they are given to Cleopatra... she probably didn't apply for that job... on the justice side of things no harm was done... nobody died so there was no reason to make the servant drink the wine once it was known that it was poisoned. If Cleopatra would have handled it differently that servant could possibly have become one of Cleopatra's most loyal servants... who knows? There wasn't enough about the servant's character except for the one lapse of honesty due to fear... but then that was what made her a good servant wasn't it? Duty out of fear... and that's probably how she could be made by someone else to bring her the poisoned wine in the first place...
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby mirjana » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:01 am

Thank you Ryan. I like your answer and I think this is how it should be. But, unfortunately to shift over oneself is not a common trace by people. If it were we would have a different world today. I totally agree about giving an effort to understand the reason behind and try to give the chance.
The example from Les Misérables is a very good one. I admire people who are able to approach a situation from completely another perspective but their very personal one. Such approaches change the world and the whole book is actually about such an impact.
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