Justice and Revenge

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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:43 am

Sabina wrote:
The judgment would have to be impeccable.. there mustn't be any room for error or misjudgment whatsoever. Agreed?
In most cases that is not possible and it is up to believing the affected person (the one who was raped, or the one who had something stolen from them,..) and believing them completely. No reservations... the way they say it happened, is the way it happened.
If people were always honest, with themselves and others, that would fine, even though the affected person may still not see things clearly even if they honestly believe that they are telling the truth.
Now add the possibility of lies or exaggerations by the affected person... that leaves room for a lot of misjudgment, or simply rash judgment.
In that sense punishing someone so severely (and permanently) solely based on someone's claims could be considered unforgivable.

Now if you look at revenge or death penalty in those terms.. it is actually quite similar.

Sabina


[El] true that and I admit that I have not taken that into consideration. And that's exactly why I'm not a lawyer :D However... We somehow mixed together revenge and justice. So what if I knew who the murderer was and I decided to take revenge?

We also have to take into account now, as you pointed out, that justice is not infallible. It may be corrupt, even. So what if a murderer could get away with a large bribe and laugh at you while cry your eyes out at your precious person's grave? Sorry, but I have no problem with revenge and I don't see that changing anyhow. I do believe that if someone kills and doesn't feel sorry, geuinely sorry for it, then he deserves the same treatment. They don't have more right to live than the person who they killed. No way. And I don't care how I'd feel after my revenge. I would know that the son of a *** doesn't live anymore. That would be plenty.
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Sabina » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:49 am

Metatron wrote:I do believe that if someone kills and doesn't feel sorry, genuinely sorry for it, then he deserves the same treatment.


Ok... Now what if they are genuinely sorry?
What if it was a crime of passion and they lost their head and they feel awful about it? They deeply regret it...
What if it was an accident and they are sorry?
(2 separate questions)
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:53 am

Yeah, that's why I said if they aren't sorry. Accident is that... an accident. There was no intent behind it. And well... act of passion... Still, the the murder was not planned and there was a sudden intent, so I would even go as far as to forgive such a person. However, more odds are needed to be known. I may not be strongly related to the killed person, so that would affect my approach as well.

But, as I said, if it was planned, and even justice failed to do justice, then I would take revenge. And I won't go back on that.
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Sabina » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:57 am

So you set out to take revenge... and you come to the person who you believe or know to have killed someone you love. What happens?
You say "I would like to talk with you"...?

I mean.. so you can get all the facts and make sure you are not doing the wrong thing, right?

What if they see you, they know who you are, and they run.
Do you go after them and say "Wait, I just want to talk and ask you some questions!!", or what do you do?
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:05 am

Well, I would make sure that I know this person really is the murderer. And yes, if I wasn't sure I would talk to them. What's so strange about that? But talking to that person is not the only way, there are several ways I can investigate a crime.

If I tried to talk to them and they'd run... well, why do they run? Because they're hiding something. Or. Because they're scared I might not believe them. In either case I would run after them and make sure I have the right person.
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Sabina » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 am

Ok.. that's for murder. =0X on that for now.
The examples I took were rape and theft.
What would be "justice" for those crimes?

Look... let's say a woman gets raped... a very common response to that is the "need" to kill the rapist! However, that seems more like revenge than justice, doesn't it?
Rape is a horrible crime, I'm not even going to get into that in detail, but the woman is still alive. Should the man who raped her be murdered? And then someone will come to avenge his death, and so on...?
The whole concept of revenge, as opposed to justice, is that it escalates.

That is also why I took wars as an example. Wars are an escalation as well and they always cause a great deal of additional damage and innocent people get hurt in the process.

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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:24 am

Sabina wrote:Ok.. that's for murder. =0X on that for now.
The examples I took were rape and theft.
What would be "justice" for those crimes?

Look... let's say a woman gets raped... a very common response to that is the "need" to kill the rapist! However, that seems more like revenge than justice, doesn't it?
Rape is a horrible crime, I'm not even going to get into that in detail, but the woman is still alive. Should the man who raped her be murdered? And then someone will come to avenge his death, and so on...?
The whole concept of revenge, as opposed to justice, is that it escalates.

That is also why I took wars as an example. Wars are an escalation as well and they always cause a great deal of additional damage and innocent people get hurt in the process.

Sabina


It is actually a bit hard to determine what is right to say and do in these cases. I can see your point in the escalation in revenge, however, it doesn't always have to be so. Your average rapist (and this is more of a guess) is an unsociable person who doesn't really have anyone who would avenge his death if he became victim of revenge. Of course if it was a group of people and the rapist did out of fun or because he simply doesn't care and thinks he can do whatever he want, I would consider letting the whole thing be because obviously it is not wise to run into a group of lowlifes all by yourself.

I still do think however that justice in many cases can't do justice, as I've already mentioned, what about bribes? Corruption? What if the murderer or rapist never gets his deserved punishment, he will never be healed, what then?
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Sabina » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:01 pm

Whether the rapist has "friends" or not shouldn't be of any importance. If we are talking about justice then the practicality of it is not the point, I think.
I also never implied that there should be a lack of justice... and in the case of a corrupt juridical system it would seem only right to take justice into your own hands. As long as it really is justice though, and not just revenge.

There are two possible problems with this approach.
1) Determining the magnitude of the punishment and making sure that it is just and not excessive. This is problematic regardless of what crime exactly has been committed.
2) What happens to you, the one who is executing the punishment and how that further affects you and your surroundings.

The thing is that the above two problems lead intelligent people to draw the wrong conclusions and hence assume an extreme position... extremely passive in this case.
I don't think we humans are meant to be passive. Being passive in its extreme means death. If you don't act, you don't accomplish anything, not even the most basic things, hence you literally die.
So passiveness is, in my opinion, one of the biggest "sins".

Unfortunately there is the other extreme as well, and that is the simple eye for an eye, kill 'em all approach. Passion and anger at its worst causing people to overreact and act wrongly.

The solution must be somewhere in the middle, between the blood-thirsty mass (screaming for revenge) and the numbed passive mass (no action at all). This goes for the individual approach as well as large scale justice.

Sabina
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Pat » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:28 pm

Ever since this country, Slovakia, has been constitutioned, death sentence has been out of question. Strangely, I don't see any decrease in violence. We don't teach children violence, we never did, actually children care so little about the news that they have no chance to find out what serial killer has been death sentenced for butchering a shitload of people. This is not where children learn violence and I don't see how this ever could be.


We teach our children by actions and in the USA we have always been a violent country. It has been proven over and over that capital punishment ( the death penalty) does not deter violent crimes.
So our children see us solving our problems with violence and they learn to use violence. The USA has always used wars to solve it's problems from the revolutionary war until today we have been in constant wars. We use the death penalty as revenge if we really wanted to change we would work on the cause of the problems in our society .
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Re: Justice and Revenge

Postby Metatron » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:12 am

Sabina wrote:
The solution must be somewhere in the middle, between the blood-thirsty mass (screaming for revenge) and the numbed passive mass (no action at all). This goes for the individual approach as well as large scale justice.

Sabina


Okay, I guess you have a point there. Murder could and probably would affect me in bad ways afterwards and would probably bring no further use. So it is better to find a middle path... but what would that be? How do you as an individual make an effect big enough to change someone's mind about what they did and at the same time punish them well enough according to what they did?

Pat wrote:We teach our children by actions and in the USA we have always been a violent country. It has been proven over and over that capital punishment ( the death penalty) does not deter violent crimes.
So our children see us solving our problems with violence and they learn to use violence. The USA has always used wars to solve it's problems from the revolutionary war until today we have been in constant wars. We use the death penalty as revenge if we really wanted to change we would work on the cause of the problems in our society .


I failed to see the "bigger picture" in this case I think (maybe a lack of sleep? lol ), so if I take it as the society trying to fix a problem by another problem, instead of working on the gist of a problem, and teaching this method to children then yes, you're right. However, as long as there is a power hungry government in each and every country, it will be hard to do things otherwise. The vast majority of the adult population in most countries acts like children, and the government as their parents. And the reason is that the society simply fails to stop and think.

It was very obvious to me today at school. We had our philosophy lesson as usual. Now a bunch of girls is usually pretty loud on these lessons, because we have a cool teacher who is trying to be friendly and cool (which I think he does very well). Obviously philosophy is not an attractive subject nowadays (there are always exceptions to the rules :) ) so they make fun of everything that is being talked about on these lessons. Today we were talking about Nietzsche, who to a lazy mind that never tried to think about anything other than Robert Pattinson and teenage cliched versions of love, may sound disturbing and weird.

Nietzsche is weird indeed, but he has some pretty true ideas that simply never cease to fade out or lose on truth, they're like diamonds. Especially the idea about people being sheep who just blindly follow their shepherd. So one of these girls tries to be serious for a moment and she goes: So what if we don't allow them to control us?

So I couldn't resist it anymore and simply said that she's stupid and doesn't even know when she is being controlled, or by whom.

I may have gone a bit off topic (quite a bit actually), but I just wanted to share how shocked I was. The lesson was chaotic, everyone was laughing and making fun of what was said... They were acting exactly like Nietzsche said. Ironic. As long as we have people like this making up society, we're doomed...
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