How much is your soul worth

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:08 pm

Is there any chance at all that the judge was honestly giving advice to a contestant that he thought would help her realize her stated ambition of having her own TV show?

Yes! That is absolutely possible and even probable.
Is that what the disagreement was about here?
George, maybe that's the "problem" here. At least for me, this isn't about the intent of the judge only, actually that's not even the most important thing, so to debate that would be ludicrous, for me. For me, it is about the girl.

Now, like I said, I believe it is absolutely possible that he genuinely loved her voice. That doesn't mean though that what he said was meant as a piece of good advice George. And, I also wonder, did you ask yourself why he said that?
Let's even go a step further and say he truly believes what he said to be good and important advice.
Fair enough?
Why does he think that way?
You don't think he is a product of this society and a life spent in that "branch" of business as well?
This isn't about painting anything black that is actually gray George... you can always say that.. you can always attack people and say things like "If you don't agree with me you are just being stubborn"
B0) Really?

George, I don't think we can afford to not look deep when it comes to things like this (and many other things as well), or in other words, let us look a little deeper and see things for what they are.
Let's not try to make something gray just so it is "bearable".
You know some people do that, right? They paint everything gray... it's all ok.. just don't get too excited about anything... I am not saying you are doing that, but it is something to consider.
Making this comfortable for myself at any cost, that was/is never an option for me. I hope you can understand that. So.. if I see an injustice? George, I will definitely get angry... and I will also become pro-active in one way or another. I believe it to be my duty as a human being...

One more thing. For me, while I truly love debates, it is never about winning or losing.

Sabina
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:41 pm

Sabina, I understand what you are saying and I understand your reaction to his comments. My initial reaction was the same as yours and the audience, then I (and the audience) realized he was just setting the stage for his good comments, so I just let it go. Evidently the show and part of the enjoyment was the entertainment value of what and how the judges spoke.

For example, it is impossible to tell a joke without "exploiting" someone or some thing. For some reason we perverse humans find humour in that. For me the intent is a major part of what I judge. So, in the moment of that comment, I did not see bad intent.

For you, the basic scenario is filled with bad intent, and to me, at least you seem to be so consumed by that, you then assume the worst of everything and everyone involved, make it a cause and will not let it go.

For you it was not entertainment, it was symbolic about something you regarded as unjust and inappropriate....... and you wanted to focus on that injustice. I understand that and even agree with it to a degree.

How about the world wide audience? Their focus was obviously the entertainment. Is their enjoying the show allowed, or must they all turn off their tvs and computers to protest. Maybe people just like to be expoited? =0o The audience enjoyed being exploited as they seemed to enjoy the show.The girl and her parents were overjoyed that they were being "exploited". I did not mind being exploited as I watched the you-tube piece.

I guess where we differ is in the conclusions we come to as to the inevitability of the worst case where the exploitation will end and what our complicity amounts to by not taking a stand then and there by walking out of the studio, away from the TV etc to protest the injustice and inevitable unjust end that is now in store for the young girl and all those who follow her example.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:04 pm

Ok, I have a question, and I would like to hear your answer to it before we proceed.

Just because something is labeled entertainment, meant as entertainment and by a majority of people received/perceived as entertainment.. does that make it ok, regardless of what it is and what all it entails?
From everything you wrote it sounds like your answer would be an enthusiastic "Absolutely Yes!!!", but I would like to make sure. So, does it?

GenerousGeorge wrote:I guess where we differ is in the conclusions we come to as to the inevitability of the worst case where the exploitation will end and what our complicity amounts to by not taking a stand then and there by walking out of the studio, away from the TV etc to protest the injustice and inevitable unjust end that is now in store for the young girl and all those who follow her example.

Yes, I guess so, sounds about right.
So, you don't take a stand against something you believe to be wrong?
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:35 pm

I'm not sure. 80S I have to know more about the subject I guess. That show in particular, what is the history of the contestants after the light dim. If I saw some negative results from direct involvement with the show more than the incidents of similar aspiring entertainers elsewhere I might be motivated to take a stand.

I am not likely to take a stand against an industry in general on principal alone unless it is doing grievous harm, like the IraQ war....

More later...gotta go to chucrch with family. =0o
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:04 pm

GenerousGeorge wrote:More later...gotta go to chucrch with family. =0o

=0/ Sorry.. I know it's not your favorite part of the day... :)


GenerousGeorge wrote:...If I saw some negative results from direct involvement with the show more than the incidents of similar aspiring entertainers elsewhere I might be motivated to take a stand.

Hmm.. ok, and until you do see it you would judge others who already saw it?
You kind of judged us saying that we are painting something black, exaggerating, etc.

So do you try to find out more about something that seems "suspicious", or do you only find out more about it if it accidentally hits you on the head, in a manner of speaking?
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:53 am

Sabina, where have I judged someone? I point out examples of what to me is obvious exagerration not supported by the facts. I.e. Simon and Hitler comparision, 40 to 50 year old man whose intent is to get the 11 year old to wear less clothes etc etc.

I don't know that much about the entertainment industry first hand so I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and take some things at face value. It is not a black and white issue to me and it has never really concerned me much until this subject was raised here.

Having said that, I recognize this is an imperfect world and we are imperfect beings and so I don't try to judge others intentions. I don't have any first hand knowledge about this show, but I enjoy it. I like seeing and hearing the new talent that is given publicity.

If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of the show, I believe I would not do so because for me it is entertainment and the potential for harm and misuse of the talent showcased is not alarming or grave enough to me to launch an immediate investigation.

Many things in this world trouble me much more that I get no "good value" from. I believe this is a "grey area" and you want to regard it in absolute terms of black and white.

Do you think the entertainment value perceived by many watching the show counts for anything? If you had the power would you wave your magic wand and cleanse the whole evil dark empire of big time television and movies?

I think in many cases, it is possible that you demonstrate an idealistic and "Ivory Tower" view of the world. I could be wrong, as have been before, but I don't believe that you and Ryan have any doubt about the validity of regarding this as a black and white issue any more than Christians really are capable of examining their faith.

Please try to take my comments in the way I give them. As I said before, I understand your positions and agree with much of it, I just don't think your point of view is very balanced or open to disagreement and that's why you regard my comments as attacks and combative. I don't mean them to be and the issue for me is not relatively significant enough or affect me directly enough to have the kind of strong feelings about it that you have.

I don't mind discussing it though and I am trying hard to understand your position from your point of view.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:00 am

George, Ryan nicely addressed the whole black and white thing:
Ryan wrote:George, you are right... nothing here is "black and white" and nobody is saying it is... what we are doing is tossing the "black" on one side of the scale and the "white" on the other side and seeing if it is balanced or which out weighs the other. With every single event that happens there is a positive, negative, and neutral affects... it is a universal law and we all know it.

..but you keep saying that like nothing has been said. You are attacking both of us instead of debating. What's up with that? We all talk here individually, we say different things, and others said some things too, by the way, but you generalize and try to show fault of character here? We have a tendency to paint things black and white?
Do you know why you do that?
I can offer you at least a possible answer, and that is because of how you approach things that you have a problem with. Like religion, for instance. For you, that is a very black and white topic, so you think if we have an issue with something, it is the same way for us - black and white. It's a possibility.

GenerousGeorge wrote:I think in many cases, it is possible that you demonstrate an idealistic and "Ivory Tower" view of the world. I could be wrong, as have been before, but I don't believe that you and Ryan have any doubt about the validity of regarding this as a black and white issue any more than Christians really are capable of examining their faith.

I don't know what you call judging, but that what you wrote above is a judgment, right there. Or do you think because you also wrote "I could be wrong" that it's not a judgment?

It's ok though... you said yourself you enjoy the entertainment value of these shows. Thousands of people used to enjoy watching the gladiators and saw nothing wrong with it. It was all ok. Some gladiators excelled, others didn't... the entertainment is there, plain for them to see.

But, since I am drawing a parallel here, I must be exaggerating again, right?
B0)
You pretty much attack all the valid possibilities of a debate, like naming examples, bringing up metaphors, drawing parallels, etc., you call it all exaggerating, call it bad, and if we call an attack just that, then that's because we are not balanced.
That is like this what you wrote earlier... if you don't agree with me, then you are just stubborn.
Ok.

Sabina
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:04 am

"George, Ryan nicely addressed the whole black and white thing:"

Ryan wrote:

"George, you are right... nothing here is "black and white" and nobody is saying it is... what we are doing is tossing the "black" on one side of the scale and the "white" on the other side and seeing if it is balanced or which out weighs the other. With every single event that happens there is a positive, negative, and neutral affects... it is a universal law and we all know it"

Sabina, he nicely "sidestepped it" .... What he said in effect was that.....nobody is saying this is all black and white, but we have weighed the merits of both sides and decided to treat it as if it was. B0) (only black vs white)

I'm not trying to find fault in anybodys character. Having different viewpoints on how to deal with something and my pointing that out is not meant to be an accusation of character flaws. It's just a difference of opinion in the way we deal with some things, or maybe where we draw the line.

You said words to the effect that, the line between right and wrong has to be drawn somewhere and then you need to stand up for what is right. We just view the subject matter differently. For me the judges comment was a little dramatic and maybe not called for...... for you it was a call to arms about what is wrong with the entertainment industry, big business and how society exploits women and children.

I think that is an "Ivory Tower" way of thinking about the issue. Maybe this situation calls for that viewpoint on the issue, and although you may find it the appropriate way to deal with it that way, it just does not fit my style or the way I try to evaluate things. Right, wrong ??? I don't know.....different for sure.

You say I unfairly accuse you of exaggerating ...... then you say.... "It's ok though... you said yourself you enjoy the entertainment value of these shows. Thousands of people used to enjoy watching the gladiators and saw nothing wrong with it. It was all ok. Some gladiators excelled, others didn't... the entertainment is there, plain for them to see."

"But, since I am drawing a parallel here, I must be exaggerating again, right?" .....Wrong Sabina, you are exaggerating because you are comparing two events very dissimilar in degree.....gladiators killing each other for entertainment and a judge telling someone to change the way they dress. Just like Ryan did when comparing Simon to Hitler. There are huge discrepancies in degree here. THAT IS WHAT EXAGGERATING IS. A parallel on the other hand is usually drawn between things similar in degree. It is pretty obvious you both like to exaggerate for effect. Again, thats okay, but please don't act like I am being unfair to point it out.

In fact this is a good example of what is a little frustrating when "debating" with you guys..... You/Ryan want to make a parallel between Hitler and Simon or gladiators and 11 year old singers, claim it is a parallel and not exaggerated and then having established them equal, act like I am unreasonable not to treat Simon like Hitler, or the entertainment industry like gladiators. =0o

Also, one last thing...... we can surely disagree and still respect and like each other. If we want to make a good dinner, sometimes we just have to stay in the kitchen where the heat is. <3
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:49 am

One more last thing in example.....Why make a major deal about a judges comments on a little girls performance on TV and then condone the practice of religious dogma (butterflies/pixie dust ) =0/

For me anger and outrage is kind of like a fire trucks water supply. if you use it all up fighting grass fires, there is nothing left for the 9-11 kind of emergencies. =0o
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:20 pm

No George... you have just convinced me... I am adopting your method into my life... as long as I can take pleasure in something, in some way, and as long as whatever is bad about that something doesn't affect me or my loved ones personally... why should I care? You are right... why should I get all in a fuss and excited and work to inform myself and try to explain things to others and save them the time and energy of doing the research themselves... when I could spend my time in much more enjoyable ways than speaking and trying to explain the deeper meaning behind things? After all, it only darkens me and I become labeled as some nut case who takes things to extremes and am some sort of crazed "idealist"... Who needs it? Not me... Why should I care? It's not my problem...
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