How much is your soul worth

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:50 pm

It is all connected... you can't take a person's comment, who has an agenda, and remove it from the situation to make it fit into a prettier picture... He isn't trying to "help her" out, he is trying to get mass amounts of quick cash into his pockets off of that girl's wonderful voice and he doesn't care how he hurts her or her family doing it. And that is how it comes to the "selling your soul"...

It's the famous story... standing at the crossroads to meet the devil and make a deal... your moments of fame for your soul...

George, if the "Big Business and Entertainment" is the devil... and you give in and succumb to their wishes for their purposes in order to get what you want, then you have given up (or sold) a part of yourself for whatever it is that they are actually offering you... therefore the analogy or literary exaggeration of a person selling their soul fits...

Sabina's anger is due to centuries of female oppression and objectification and in my opinion she has every right to be angry when she witnesses that such things are still a part of our lives. So, yes... when there is a 40 to 50 year old man telling a little girl to change her hair, dress, and shoes to appear more like the scantily and flashy dressed performers of today... yes, she gets angry. It makes sense. There is nothing wrong with anger... any more than there is something wrong with happiness... or sadness. You think she should ignore all the other things behind this show and take the guy as a human being and that he is just offering kind words of advice...? Neither she nor I can turn a blind eye to such things...

You can certainly keep to your opinion that it is just a TV show for entertainment purposes and those "judges" are just playing roles... and giving good advice... that is your choice and I am sure you have your reasons. I don't know, but maybe you feel that the judges are just doing a certain job and that in essence they aren't part of the "bigger picture". Kind of like if Joe Bob, from down the street, is working in a missile factory, simply doing one minor part in assembling missiles, there is nothing really wrong with what he is doing. He is just making a living the best way he can... is that it?
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:04 pm

I understand you don't approve of big business, the entertainment business in general or their ethics.

You said....... "So, yes... when there is a 40 to 50 year old man telling a little girl to change her hair, dress, and shoes to appear more like the scantily and flashy dressed performers of today... yes, she gets angry."

You maintain that the cold hearted "spawn of the devil" Judge was trying to get this girl to do a striptease because his personal agenda of greed would be helped if she would comply.
You are explicit and sure that the well being of this young girl was the last thing on his mind.

I think your comments are just a tad overstated and that your assumption that just because he was trying to help her win the competition, was not because she was the most talented, that it was only to satisfy his own base motives. Further, he had no good will and concern for the young girl and everything he did or said was strictly to benefit the show and ultimately him.

No doubt he wanted to benefit the show, that was his job, but by your definition everything he says and does is already poisoned by the evil and tawdry basic concept and philosophy of this kind of show that has dirty old men trying to get young girls to take their clothes off. 80S =0o 80S

I surmise that this genre of TV talent competitions is just not acceptable to you because of their base motivations? It seems you are trying to make a case that because I was not "angry" about that comment, as part of that competition and did not think it was out of line for the venue it was in, that somehow I support greed, big business and getting young girls to show a little "skin" for perverted 40 to 50 year old sex perverts. LOL =0o B0) =0o
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:40 pm

George... I said nothing about him being a sexual pervert or getting a little girl to do a strip tease... I said let an 11 year old girl be an 11 year old girl. Don't encourage her to get all sequined up and cake on the make-up to make her look like she is in her late teens or early twenties. What made this little girl special was that she was 11 years old and the voice was not... they suggested she lose the little girl aspect and become more generic... it is not helpful... but Ok George... this is the way it is going to go? You take what I am saying and try to exaggerate it to the point of ridiculousness instead of trying to understand it... I get it...
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby HGolightly » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:11 am

I only wish to share my perspective on this topic, which certainly does not diminish that of others opinions. All of which was interesting to read.

I think it's important to keep in mind that this is a "girl" who is at the tender age of "eleven". It has been a few years, to say the least, since I was of that age. Yet, if I stop to reflect upon that time period - in relations to how I am today. I am certain that I would have glossed over the compliment, and focused more on the "change your hair, dress, and shoes". Especially, if it was vocalized from that of an older male adult figure (in front of millions of people). I've been around a lot of eleven year old girls, and most of them are extremely self-conscious, aiming to please, insecure, and more. I firmly believe that how a young girl interprets and processes information is not relative to that of an adult. Children are generally more sensitive to interpreting "constructive criticism".

When I first heard the remarks by the judge, I thought, "Oh, now why did he have to say that?! She looks great", but I come from the mindset of "sensitivity". I can only "identify" with how words affected me back when I was in the pre-pubescent stage of life. I am cognizant that we "all" have our point of reference to consider. Our age, culture, gender, family background, belief system, and the like. Even still, one needs to think from the mindset of a young girl and not from the perspective of an adult.

In regard to the young singer and showbiz - it seems the subliminal message, however slight, suggests that girl's "powerful voice" does not match her "age appropriate" attire. This is where I think discretion by an adult should be taken into consideration. And, too, her parent's obviously signed the release form to enter their daughter into this well known talent show. This is a topic that could expand in many directions ...

This last bit came to mind when I initially read the title, "How much is your soul worth". It is dramatic, but true: "In 1998 or 1999, Christy Henrich, while succeeding in gymnastics, was bluntly told by a U.S. judge at an international meet that she was fat and needed to lose weight. Apparently, Henrich took the comment to heart. Her drive to lose a few pounds progressed to unhealthy eating habits, which eventually led her to having full-blown anorexia nervosa. She died of multiple organ failure, as a result of anorexia, at the age of 22 - weighing only 60 lbs". Obviously, this girl was older than eleven; yet, perhaps she received some slight comment when she was younger. The final comment from the judge sent her down the path of no return. This is an extreme version, of what "comments" can do to a person.

The power of "Words" can play a significant aspect on one's life; even, the slightest ones. Not everyone is at the same stage as others, be it small or large ... food for thought. Great topic.

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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:38 am

Ryan...... no you don't get it at all. I understand, appreciate and agree with your and Sabinas general point of view on this. I understand your dislike of big business and the Entertainment industry who often victimize young people for profit. I have said as much over and over.

I just took issue with the intent of that one statement. I thought your reaction to it was out of proportion to the meaning and spirit of what Simon said. I don't think you have made any real effort to understand my point of view on this.

Beyond that you greatly exaggerate with your examples and then accuse me of exaggerating when I point that out. You said once you don't have much empthy. I agree and think you need to work on that.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:03 am

You two are not clicking on this it seems.
If you both (or all three of us for that matter) agree about the general point of view on this, as well as the victimizing of young people for profit, then as George pointed out, the only disagreement is about the particualr comment in relation to all that.
Simply put, Ryan says the comment is related to these issues, and I agree.
George says the comment is/was not related to any of the above issues.

George, is that correct so far?
If at all possible, I am interested to understand how you see the man's comment to the 11 year old girl unrelated, if you agree on everything else. That seems like a paradox to me, and I am genuinely curious to understand.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:09 am

Hmmmmmm okay, let's see Sabina. Good question! I see a tendency for some people to see things as either black or white, all good or all bad. Most things, in reality, are not 100% good or bad. So there is at least a possibility that just because we disagree with some (or even most) parts of something (like commercial talent shows) it is not a "given" that all parts of it are evil or bad.

For example, hearing that 11 year old sing (and other performers) like that was an uplifting and memorable experience for me. I am fairly certain it was that as well for the 3 judges. They were all obviously entranced and amazed at the voice that came from that 11 year old. I guarantee you that as they listened to her perform, they were not thinking..... "Oh boy, here is a moneymaker for me and the show, how can I exploit her........hmmm more revealing clothes, AHA,,,that's it, that will appeal to the 40 to 50 year old men."

Is there any chance at all that the judge was honestly giving advice to a contestant that he thought would help her realize her stated ambition of having her own TV show?

Can you not divorce that comment from your low opinion of the motives of the people who organize these things, or is everything automatically stained with your opinion of the these kinds of commercial entertainment events in general?.

Without that show, none of us would have had the opportunity to hear her sing, the studio audience, the TV audience or the You-tube subscribers. Also, she had an opportunity to fulfill her dream. Therefore, I maintain, that everything is not black and white and that there is some "good" entertainment value and opportunity that can come out of this kind of show and one of the very best parts of that was this girls performance and realization of her dream.

So, could there be changes in the way they are run and society looks at and chooses the "winners" in life in general and this show in particular? Obviously the answer to that is yes. Does that mean we throw out the baby with the bath water, I don't think so.

Are you two so enamored of your own philosophy about the nature of commercial entertainment enterprises in general that you see no truth or possibility of truth in that something good might come from this particular comment on this particular show, or that the judge was genuinely impressed and trying to help? <3

If a forum such as Deep Spirits is searching for the truth and the ability to have an open mind or have the ability to change your mind and to learn from dialogue, this might be a good opportunity to do that. <3

On the other hand, maybe George just wants to be right and will twist the facts around to make sure he wins a debate. I never know that for sure myself, and have certainly done that more than once. LOL =0o
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby dermot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:54 pm

I am hesitating to put virtual pen to paper on this one.

To me there are lots of things to be considered,
Should a show which is exploitative by nature be on TV, who makes that decision?
Should a parent allow an 11yr old to participate?
Who is responsible if a parent is not?
If i have an objection to the idea of an 11yr old being exploited, where does my power begin and end with regard to this?

There was a middle aged woman from Scotland, plucked from obscurity and without regard to her own fragile mental state, and limited experience. She sang a song and became a celebrity in 3minutes. Then she had to go lie down for a while an be cared for by caring professionals.
Bottom line i guess is anyone can be exploited.

Me, i dont watch it on TV, thats about all i can do.
There is an automatic response among good willed people to want the best for a person when they reach for the stars.
There is also the 'car crash mentality' where we want to observe a disaster at a distance.

Opinions on these subjects are just that, choosing to embrace extremes can be just moral window cleaning, we need to sweep our own side of the street and hope someone else is inspired to do likewise.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:52 pm

GenerousGeorge wrote:Ryan...... no you don't get it at all. I understand, appreciate and agree with your and Sabinas general point of view on this. I understand your dislike of big business and the Entertainment industry who often victimize young people for profit. I have said as much over and over.
Yes? Ok... I am sorry, but the general impression for me anyway, is that your opinion on this matter has remained the same since the beginning of the discussion. I certainly recall where at one point you agreed with my assessment of "big business and entertainment" but you concluded that your opinion remained the same about the judge's comments.

GenerousGeorge wrote:I thought your reaction to it was out of proportion to the meaning and spirit of what Simon said.
In response I would like to take your own words...
GenerousGeorge wrote:You do know it was not Simon that made that comment =0/ right??? Have you actually listened to the comment first hand we are discusssing? =0o Simon's role is to be a jerk and he seems quite natural and good at it, but he is not the judge whose comment we are discussing.


GenerousGeorge wrote:Beyond that you greatly exaggerate with your examples and then accuse me of exaggerating when I point that out.
What did I "greatly exaggerate" with?
When I said "...when there is a 40 to 50 year old man telling a little girl to change her hair, dress, and shoes to appear more like the scantily and flashy dressed performers of today... "? Shall I collect some pictures and videos of common "costume" for performers today?

GenerousGeorge wrote:I don't think you have made any real effort to understand my point of view on this.
Well, let me see... the way I have understood your point of view is that the judge is playing a role and is not sincerely a money hungry worm that is not careful with people's feelings and his statement was made in the way it was made just out of a sense of performance and entertainment but that his underlying "advice" was sincere and only purpose is to help the young girl out in reaching her dreams at becoming a performer/entertainer and having her own TV show... did I miss something?

__12__
...to respond to George's latest post...


George, you are right... nothing here is "black and white" and nobody is saying it is... what we are doing is tossing the "black" on one side of the scale and the "white" on the other side and seeing if it is balanced or which out weighs the other. With every single event that happens there is a positive, negative, and neutral affects... it is a universal law and we all know it.

If those memorable moments of being mesmerized by that little girl's voice came at the cost of her hopes and dreams being smashed because of the financial greed of some or it was too early for her to start a career in music, that girl's parents going into deep debt trying to make sure that all the efforts and pains of the last year weren't for nothing and because they want see her succeed in a career in music, or that it is now implanted in her head to be successful in her choice of career she has to look a certain way and if she wants it bad enough she will do whatever it takes to look that way... then no it is not worth it. I would rather have not heard her sing...

Yes, the judge was impressed... no he doesn't care about that little girl or any other contestant on that show any further than how their presence and performance influences his own career. And if his mean and insensitive comments can be part of an act for entertainment purposes then so can his genuine sincerity and concern...

But George if we approach everything the way you are saying then nothing changes... I can give you all kinds of benefits/goods/positives as to how Christianity's existence has had positive influences on people and events throughout history... and how there is truth and sincerely helpful advice within its scriptures... but in your opinion does that make it good... will you now go out and defend Christianity and its positive affects?

Or are you saying that just because a person is a priest doesn't mean his comments aren't sincere and meant to truly help?
If so, true (depending on what he is preaching), and we agree... BUT! If it is pointed out that those words (be it a role, part of entertainment, or whatever) can be mentally and emotionally harmful to a young impressionable girl... which is more important? She winning the contest? and therefore his comment is Ok? It is sincere and good? Or does he have a higher responsibility when addressing people from his "higher" point of authority than to be some witty cool person for drama's sake or whatever?

But none the less... in comparison (including the greys) the whites ... the underlying tone was sincere with intent to help her... in comparison to his tone, manner, approach and the girl's age... it was wrong... you can hear people in the audience moan, the judge beside him... these are others that felt the same way and they weren't the one he was speaking to...nor are they eleven years old with all kinds of media pressure upon girls and how they are "supposed" to look... these things are part of it George. And to only focus upon the possibility of what might be good in it all... is neglectful and irresponsible in my opinion.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:04 pm

Like Dermot said, it is a matter of opinion. We disagree about this, no big deal. Whats for dessert? =0/
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