How much is your soul worth

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:09 am

Mirjana...we have been around the Maypole so many times on this I don't know where we are any more. The basic problem is that Sabina and Ryan regard this show, in general and the judges comment in particular as a more serious problem to society than I do. Thats all! 80S

Because they thought that the comments of the judge tainted the whole show they decided that we/they should judge the whole show as unacceptable. That is why I called it "black & white" thinking. They perceived my comment as judgemental and trying to discredit them as well as an attempt at character assassination. How is a fellow supposed to disagree with something anyway? I was not trying to be disrespectful or inflammatory, it was just my perception. Why do Ryan and Sabina take it so personnally.

Wen you did not share my opinion of the gravity of religion in society, I did not take that as a personal insult, your attitude was just let the religions "live and let live". Even though I regarded that as a much more serious threat than the one represented by the judges comments, and deserving much more attention, I just thought......"hmmm they see it differently than me, I don't agree with their position but I did not feel or act like that was an attack on me personnally that made it necessary to retaliate."
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:32 am

=0/ Don't worry about it George. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I, for one, even though I try not to assume anything, I often make the mistake and assume that the reason people don't know something is because they just didn't come across the right information yet. Thinking that if I try to help them out and provide it, they will want to know, but of course we can't make anyone "discover" or see anything if they don't want to. We can't give them any answers unless they ask the questions, and so on.
How does that saying go? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Something like that, I think.

Anyways... don't worry about it, and please don't get excited. Everything is ok.

Oh, and George, there is no need to recruit people either. We are all on the same team here.
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Alvino » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:55 am

seem to be rules in this show business world and not much can be done to change them. Pat explained it well."


hey folks == DO NOT PICK ON THE SHOW BUSINESS WORLD FOR THIS CRIME

what would happen if you showed up for a WEDDING in hobo clothes
and """""" not dressed for the OCCASION for many, many other
human GATHERING ACTIVITIES.

YEP you would be OSTRACIZED by most groups

MORAL OF my belief is this


SINCE THEY WANT YOU IN CERTAIN CLOTHES AT THE WEDDING
you could JUST SEND YOUR CLOTHES TO THE WEDDING or to the SHOW
since they are SO DEEPLY and strongly interested in your clothes.

whoops send your shoes , also. SINCE there is, also a DEMAND for
certain types of shoes at some gatherings.

It is against my religion to DWELL on the concept of blame
but WHISPER = it is USUALLY THE lady type humans who are
loudly DEMANDING that proper shoes and clothes be worn at wedding type activities
and it is MY GUESS THAT it is males who DEMAND that Show girls
wear certain TYPE of CLOTHES WHEN their job is to Entertain.

.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Alvino » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:04 am

GenerousGeorge wrote:Why do Ryan and Sabina take it so personnally

GENEROUS GEORGE , DOUBLE KUDO'S FOR YOU.

REMEMBER, BROTHER GEORGE you and I have
a DIFFERENT EDUCATION

MY MOSTEST, GREATEST UNIVERSITY is probably
the same UNIVERSITY YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE
most wonderful and most powerful and most
VALUABLE AND MOST profitable UNIVERSITY
we could ever attend.
AND AS I SEE YOU , ( I HAVE A FEW PHD certificates
that I have Earned from this University) as I see you
YOU, also, HAVE earned a few PHD sheepskins from
this UNIVERSITY.
these SHEEPSKINS (education) is certainly the reason
or ONE OF THE strongest reason WHY YOU AND I CANNOT BE insulted
by what OTHERS write or say and WHY YOU AND I
DO NOT FIGHT life or people in response to WORDS they use..
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Alvino » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:17 am

Sabina wrote: =0/ Don't worry about it George. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I, for one, even though I try not to assume anything, I often make the mistake and assume that the reason people don't know something is because they just didn't come across the right information yet. Thinking that if I try to help them out and provide it, they will want to know, but of course we can't make anyone "discover" or see anything if they don't want to. We can't give them any answers unless they ask the questions, and so on.
How does that saying go? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Something like that, I think.

SABINA, I decided long ago that the REASON others called me stupid or said
I DID NOT KNOW SOMETHING is because THEY ARE MUCH MORE EDUCATED THEY I AM

THIS has been my response for years to people who decide that I am a dumbskull
or stupid or ignorant. I tell them to please have some compassion for me
I quit High School, etc. and I tell them they are fortunate that had the chance
to obtain more education then I did.

Folks, have you ever heard the SAYING THAT
SABINA cannot ever TEACH ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING ANYTHING AT ALL.
no teacher , no college professor, no parent, or minister, etc
CAN EVER TEACH A CHILD, student or any other human anything, at all.
me thinks DE VINCI may have DISCOVERED THIS TRUTH..

i repeat = THIS TRUTH....

I have been paid good money to teach preschool, elementary, middlle school,
hs, college students, and some Adult classes but I truly KNOW THAT I
was never able to TEACH anyone anything at all.

I am 100 percent certain NO Deep Spirit Member will interpret this
as an insult or attack on any member. THANKS FOLKS.
DEEP SPIRIT minded people can never be insulted or attacked BY mere words.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby HGolightly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:02 am

We began here ...

Post by Sabina » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:22 pm ...George posted a video of a girl singing. She has an amazing voice, however after her performance she was told: "Change your hair, change your dress, change you shoes, and you will win this tournament"

That upset me... a lot.

George said she took the advice and won the whole thing. That made me sad.

Pat added: "Sabina entertainment is never about the real person but what they can turn you into... "

..and Mirjana added to that: "This girl is amazing. Thank you George. It is clear that she will be a great star. I agree with Sabina, but those seem to be rules in this show business world and not much can be done to change them. Pat explained it well."

I was inspired to reply to Mirjana there, but this has nothing anymore to do with stimulating music, so therefore the new topic.

How much is your soul worth?

That's what this is to me. What I find especially confusing are statements like "She is amazing".
How so? Her voice may be amazing.. that's true.
But the moment she agrees to becoming a puppet, it's gone... there is nothing amazing about her anymore. What, an amazing puppet? Big deal... puppets are for sale.. and when you admire a puppet, you actually admire the artist who is behind it, and not the doll itself.

What are your thoughts?

Sabina


Just an unsolicited reminder of where we started from.

I can appreciate that Alvino has exercised his right to jump in to align himself with George; however, I did not appreciate what appeared as verbal accusations towards Ryan and Sabina. The matter at hand has certainly spiraled. Even still, Mr. Alvino, I don't believe I've ever read anywhere in the forum where people called you stupid, ignorant, or the like. Though, it seems there has been a bit of confusion by others in their attempt with assimilating your postings, at least with a few that I've previously read. In any event, within this recent posting, I noticed that you wrote with a bit more clarity, and I think I understand where you are coming from. In a matter of speaking. I'm sorry you experienced such an unfavorable childhood with people taunting you and so forth - that must have been very difficult for you. You sound like a brave man, and it takes a lot of courage to be as open and revealing about ones' life experiences. Thank you for sharing. Alternatively, Mr. Alvino, it would be really helpful to answer the question that was posed for this specific debate, as opposed to jumping in and taking sides. I don't think the mindset is a matter of establishing alliances with one another, but more or less, to respect differences of opinions. Furthermore, I'd really like to learn more about you as a person - pending you'd like to share. Perhaps, within the Up Close & Personal forum, as I'm sincerely interested. From one DS member to another.

For all others, I can honestly say that I observe all points, but at this juncture I think a short recess might be in order. Perhaps, a redirection to other topics that will promote good feelings. Not all discussions need to be hashed out to a point of no return. If certain people need to chat further - a consideration to chatting in PM might be more appropriate. Just one thought of many possibilities. It's one thing to debate, and it's another to have it spiral out of hand as it obviously has - we certainly want to be respectful and above all else mindful of one anothers' feelings. I have tough skin; however, I'm not here for the purpose of developing calluses. Are any of you?!

That is all I have to add in regard to this specific debate. I'm moving onto the dream category tomorrow morning :). Hope to see you "all" there!
<3
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby mirjana » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:44 am

Holly, thanks for tis comforting post that brings things to the reasonable level. I gave you Kudos for this.

If I knew this video before it would have been helpful for this topic very much. It is video where Noam Chomsky and Michel Foucault discusses the nature of power, amongst other things.
I tried to say things what Foucault explained here, but obviously I was not good in that. I am sorry for that. When I mentioned educational system and all other institutions which all together work very nicely together contra unique and personal creativity expression, it was because I wanted to stress the need for our reaction contra all these masks that serve together the same goal which is to dismiss the uniqueness of our souls.
So, I agree with M. Foucault and share his opinion which is calling for awakening. I do hope that this dialogue between these two men will be helpful for our debate here.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:11 pm

"But the moment she agrees to becoming a puppet, it's gone... there is nothing amazing about her anymore. What, an amazing puppet? Big deal... puppets are for sale.. and when you admire a puppet, you actually admire the artist who is behind it, and not the doll itself."

I don't know why we are having this much trouble coming to some kind of meeting of the minds on this subject. Obviously there are some stong sentiments here and principles that are perceived being violated.

I just have to say once again, that if you make issues like this black and white such as the statement above does by exaggeration you are not really discussing the issue but making a blanket statement of ultimate right and wrong without regard to degree.

Sabina, the girl is not agreeing to be a "puppet' by taking advice on how to dress for a show. I hate to sound like a broken record, but you are exaggerating the circumstance. If you cannot see this, you need to re-examine it.

This girl did not develop that amazing voice without an incredible amount of dedication and discipline. Talent will just take you so far. You are doing the girl a disservice by insinuating that if she changes her style of clothes for the show, she has become a puppet and that invalidates the amazing amount of work and dedication it took her to develop that talent.

Now she is on the brink of realizing her dream and you want her to do what? Express her outrage and indignation that someone should suggest she change her outfit??? For example.... "I will not become a puppet....how dare you suggest my dress is inappropriate! I'm disgusted with this whole charade and will not be used by you and Simon for your evil agenda anymore!!"

Or maybe she made the mistake of signing up for the contest in the first place and should have tried to realize her ambitions some other way.

Sorry, you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby mirjana » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:20 pm

GenerousGeorge wrote:"But the moment she agrees to becoming a puppet, it's gone... there is nothing amazing about her anymore. What, an amazing puppet? Big deal... puppets are for sale.. and when you admire a puppet, you actually admire the artist who is behind it, and not the doll itself."


I don't know why we are having this much trouble coming to some kind of meeting of the minds on this subject. Obviously there are some strong sentiments here and principles that are perceived being violated.


And I don’t know why you need again and again to turn back to some quote and stay only by that like nothing else was said about it afterwards, which it was? The fact that you do not accept further explanations is one thing, but to turn back again to something is another. Instead, one could comment the argument that have been given, ask questions if there is anything which is not clear and contribute that way to the true development of understanding the whole. So, one more try…
This whole quote, and it was said enough time was given as an illustration how things work there in that kind of business. Talent can bring you to the certain level and from then on, obedience to the rules will bring you or not further which obviously doesn’t have anything to do with the talent any more.
GenerousGeorge wrote:I just have to say once again, that if you make issues like this black and white such as the statement above does by exaggeration you are not really discussing the issue but making a blanket statement of ultimate right and wrong without regard to degree.

You have already said few times “once again” like it has never been enough to underline that somebody makes a blanket statement. How so George? Just because you say that, or me, or anybody else? Isn’t it for itself a blanket statement? And what does it bring? What was the purpose? How to understand that this is the contribution to further development of the topic and not turning the attention toward the people who just took a regular part in the debate? Because, after you saying something like this, I cannot continue just talking about the topic and ignoring that you didn’t do that, but talked about people who were talking about the topic. It doesn’t work like that and we shall not move nowhere if we continue like this.
Look, I was the one who said that the girl was amazing, but I didn’t take personally the critics I got not only from Sabina and Ryan, but from Holly too. Instead, I turned back to my post and realized that it was not the best chosen word. I could say that her singing was amazing or something as that, which I actually meant, but I didn’t choose the best word to express my thought.
GenerousGeorge wrote:Sabina, the girl is not agreeing to be a "puppet' by taking advice on how to dress for a show. I hate to sound like a broken record, but you are exaggerating the circumstance. If you cannot see this, you need to re-examine it.

You do not hate to sound like that, otherwise you would stop it. Again, like me in the case previously mentioned, wrong chosen word to express things. How one can hate something and still do it? And it was not exaggerating the circumstances; it was observation about the circumstances, which I by the way agree. The little girl is so young that she is very easy to be manipulated from the jury, parents and many more just in order to show the world how good she is in singing. In fact, the sad part is, that she is so good that everybody, including the jury and the parents and… should have recognized it and support it like a pure beauty of the voice and appearance. Instead, they wanted cliché and suggested something what cliché is. Therefore the word puppet, which is fully adequate.
GenerousGeorge wrote:This girl did not develop that amazing voice without an incredible amount of dedication and discipline. Talent will just take you so far. You are doing the girl a disservice by insinuating that if she changes her style of clothes for the show, she has become a puppet and that invalidates the amazing amount of work and dedication it took her to develop that talent.

Wow, George, it is just an opposite. Because she did all that what you said and the result was so brilliant it should have been respected and supported and not tried to pull it into the common line of look, behavior or … Recognizing her voice as something which should be only criteria for singing, Sabina actually didn’t do disservice, like you said, but service, trying to pull everybody’s attention to that what should be the only thing that matters by singing. The girl and her parents obviously have thought the same, until they were pushed to change in order to stay in.
GenerousGeorge wrote:Now she is on the brink of realizing her dream and you want her to do what? Express her outrage and indignation that someone should suggest she change her outfit??? For example.... "I will not become a puppet....how dare you suggest my dress is inappropriate! I'm disgusted with this whole charade and will not be used by you and Simon for your evil agenda anymore!!"

=0) …these questions sound naive to me. Especially the theatre of the second one, for example. She couldn’t do anything I can imagine being 11 and under the circumstances. The parents though could have defended her integrity. Therefore I think that we all injustice ignored some important questions Dermot has put in this regard. He also has pointed out this aspect.

GenerousGeorge wrote:Or maybe she made the mistake of signing up for the contest in the first place and should have tried to realize her ambitions some other way.

Maybe yes, maybe no...To suppose or assume brings nothing in any kind of talks. We have debated about something that was seen and heard by the fact. Why to turn to our wishes, assumptions or whatever instead to stay by the reason the topic is opened.
GenerousGeorge wrote:Sorry, you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

No, George, wrong insisting on something that has already been explained, like it hasn’t been, makes things to appear like that. In fact it could have been a kind of talk that would bring every one of us some new realizations.
Please give a try to the movie Corporation and this video with N. Chomsky and M. Foucault. Then it will be clear that nothing is exaggeration as long as it is connected with true conviction about the quest for the truth and willingness to show it. Both these materials clearly show where it brings us all when we consider some standing out as mountains out of a molehill. What happens then is that some molehill becomes a mountain so high that nobody can rich the top any more.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:42 pm

Okay, I see we cannot come to agreement on this. We will have to agree to disagree....anyway that is not so bad..... <3 We agree on most other things...... I hope. =0/
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