How much is your soul worth

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Heidi » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:05 pm

For me, selling my soul means compromising my personal values for profit, that is harming humans and other living things as well as the environmen just to make money, or gain fame for myself.

If somebody asked me to change my hairstyle or the way I dress in order to be more appealing to my clients at the office, or when I work for a company where there is a strict dress code, or when I am on stage, I would take it as advice which I could either accept of reject. I don't think this kind of advice has anything to do with selling my soul...
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Sabina » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:04 am

The problem is that it already begins with conforming. It may simply be less noticeable.
I posted an old sociology experiment a while ago, it's practically a classic: Conformity Experiment

That aside, please watch this short video about... let's say, children.
I know it helped my daughter realize some things that my simply saying the same didn't accomplish.



And talking about conforming.. adjusting to society.. pushing the limits a little bit more and a little bit more and just a tad more, and so on... please have a look at this:


These two young men are university students, they are the future, and I quote:
"And I have a lot of faith in the corporate world, because it's always gonna be there, so you might as well have faith in it, because if you don't, then it's just not good."
B0)
Both these videos are from a movie called "The Corporation".

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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:41 am

Heidi wrote:If somebody asked me to change my hairstyle or the way I dress in order to be more appealing to my clients at the office, or when I work for a company where there is a strict dress code, or when I am on stage, I would take it as advice which I could either accept of reject. I don't think this kind of advice has anything to do with selling my soul...


What if they asked you to get a breast enlargement or liposuction. What about botox injections? Where does it start and stop being "advice"?

The problem is the deeper insinuation... "You are not beautiful the way you are. In order to be physically attractive to your audience you have to look like this (holding up society's picture of perfection). If you don't look like this you probably aren't going to make it in this career."

This is a deep seated problem... teaching children at the age of eleven or earlier... you aren't beautiful. Your nose is too big, your breasts aren't big enough... or they are not perfectly shaped... your lips should be naturally puckered. You should weigh this much and be this tall... This dress is in style today what you are wearing is so last year... or worse yet... so last month.

Now, I can understand these things if your business is sex... and therefore it is important that the clients at your office find you appealing. But if you sell stationary... I think it is not important if you are appealing but it is important if your stationary is appealing... It is definitely important that you aren't repulsive... but I don't think you need to be appealing. A singer's product is their voice... not what brand name they have taped to them or how high their hair is. But like I said... if all this is acceptable... then where does it stop? Used to be that wearing a skirt above the knee was risqué now you can prance around on stage in a négligé and it is "Ok"... maybe to some it is not ideal... but that's how things are today... right? So... where does it stop? When they are dancing around completely naked? Maybe not... maybe then the concentration is more upon the breast size, shape, tan, muscle tone... whatever... and they will simply be advised in those arenas as well.

The girl was cute... and she looked her age. She had a nice dress, and here hair was clean, combed, and even styled some. Her parents didn't let her come out there from playing in the mud... but it wasn't good enough... it could be better... she should put a little more effort into looking more... what? Grownup? Glittery? What exactly was the problem that might have cost her points and could harm her chances of winning the contest? What is the true message behind what they are saying?
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:39 am

I'm sorry guys (and gals) I agree with Heidi.......it just seems to me you are trying to create a larger issue from something that does not merit that. If I go to a job interview at the bank and I am clean and neat with blue jeans, sneakers and a t-shirt and somebody needs to tell me......"Change your shoes, change your shirt, wear a suit, for crying out loud and with your academic credentials, you will get the job." That is completely appropriate. (especially if that advice is given in the spirit of truly helping me.) In my opinion the bank interviewer is not asking me to "sell my soul" nor is it the first step down the "slippery slope" of conforming to the evil majority and losing my soul.

I still believe that you both are taking a valid argument that you should be true to yourself (your own soul) and trying to apply that principal where it is not really appropriate. Sabina said that it made her really angry (words to that effect) that he would tell the girl to change her clothes etc. That surprise me a little to tell you the truth, I saw no reason to be angry in this unless it somehow just pushed the wrong buttons.

For me this is not a case of a "deeper problem or the deeper insinuation"... "You are not beautiful the way you are. In order to be physically attractive to your audience you have to look like this (holding up society's picture of perfection). If you don't look like this you probably aren't going to make it in this career."

I challenge you both to look at this more objectively, maybe even "play devils advocate with yourself" on the issue. I understand the principal you are emphasizing, I just don't think it is appropriate in this case. =0o

Course... "different strokes makes the world go round." and I might just be being difficult and ornery <3 B0) 80S <3
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:55 am

George, what provoked this talk wasn't a girl that appeared on stage in a pair of jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt... it was that she wasn't wearing a good enough dress, shoes, and her hair wasn't nice enough...

If the guy came into the bank in a suit... but it was a cheap suit because that is all he can afford and he doesn't get the job because his suit, shoes, and tie weren't nice enough... that would be a better comparison... it's not a larger issue... it is that issue. The girl was wearing a dress, her hair was done nicely, she had on new decent shoes... but it wasn't good enough... why wasn't it? As far as I understand it is a talent contest... not a fashion show.

What if Deep Spirits started culling its members based upon the avatar images... would that be a problem? If different individuals were approached about their avatar image and that they should consider changing it or maybe their membership will be revoked? That's Ok?
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:02 am

"George, what provoked this talk wasn't a girl that appeared on stage in a pair of jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt... it was that she wasn't wearing a good enough dress, shoes, and her hair wasn't nice enough..."

RYAN! RYAN! Nobody said anything about her clothes were not good enough. That is strictly your interpretation. What they said was >>>>"Change your hair, change your shoes, change your dress etc. and you will win this competition."

"If the guy came into the bank in a suit... but it was a cheap suit because that is all he can afford and he doesn't get the job because his suit, shoes, and tie weren't nice enough... that would be a better comparison... it's not a larger issue... it is that issue. The girl was wearing a dress, her hair was done nicely, she had on new decent shoes... but it wasn't good enough... why wasn't it? As far as I understand it is a talent contest... not a fashion show."

It was a talent contest for aspiring ENTERTAINERS..... He was giving her advice about what kind of clothes (costume if you like) was appropriate for her kind of entertainment. Thats all...everything else was highly complimentary.

Sure, he was a little dramatic about it, he is an entertainer on an entertainment show as well. I believe you and Sabina have read some intent into the judges comment that simply was not there, so that you could fit it into one of your beliefs for criticism. 80S =0o 80S

If you recall the young girl said her ambition was to "have her own TV show". The judge would be doing her no favor by not telling her that her "costume" was not appropriate for her style entertainment. It is a real stretch to say that she was "selling her soul" to conform to the demands of the judge, society, whatever.

"What if Deep Spirits started culling its members based upon the avatar images... would that be a problem? If different individuals were approached about their avatar image and that they should consider changing it or maybe their membership will be revoked? That's Ok?"

This is not a good or appropriate analogy Ryan....that would be an example of censorship with a penalty for non-conformance, not good advice given on how to achieve your already stated ambition and goal.

I really think this is a test for you to see if you (and Sabina) can change your mind when presented with evidence contrary to your initial opinion. =0o
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:11 pm

I am sorry George... I did not realize there was an entertainer's dress code in the entertainer's guide book... or maybe mine is just out of date. Can you tell me where I can get a up to date copy of it so I can brush up on the rules of entertaining and peruse the evidence myself?
80S

I don't know what you are getting out of what I have been trying to say but it sounds to me like you are making my point... There isn't an "entertainer's handbook" which outline's how a person's "costume" has to look based upon the type of music one sings... and even if there was, these guidelines are manufactured by a socially constructed standard. I mentioned them holding up society's picture of perfection in an earlier post and yet you have said...
George wrote:The judge would be doing her no favor by not telling her that her "costume" was not appropriate for her style entertainment. It is a real stretch to say that she was "selling her soul" to conform to the demands of the judge, society, whatever.
Yet right before this statement you said...
George wrote:Nobody said anything about her clothes were not good enough. That is strictly your interpretation.
Sounds like you and the judge both said her clothes/costume were not appropriate / good enough for the form of entertainment... or is it just my interpretation again?

Ryan wrote:What if Deep Spirits started culling its members based upon the avatar images... would that be a problem? If different individuals were approached about their avatar image and that they should consider changing it or maybe their membership will be revoked? That's Ok?
...to which...
George wrote:This is not a good or appropriate analogy Ryan....that would be an example of censorship with a penalty for non-conformance, not good advice given on how to achieve your already stated ambition and goal.
Hmmm... but isn't the judge telling her there is a social standard to how the performers, with which she would like to be included, should look and that if she doesn't conform to those standards her scores and chances for winning the tournament could be harmed?

Like I said... I don't know what you are reading into what I am trying to say but you are saying it along with me... I am not reading anything into it... maybe because you say she wants to be in that line of work that it makes things different for you in someway... I don't know, but regardless... it is that way.

And as for the "selling her soul" part... it is, as with a lot of literary expressions, an exaggeration to make a point. But what is meant is that at what cost are people willing to pay at achieving certain goals? For most of us, we know that when we become something we are not, we tend to feel empty... like there is something missing in life... and most turn to drugs, alcohol, or other means of escaping the reality we made for ourselves. And being that the entertainment business is the largest and deepest well for examples of this, we are contemplating the possible implications of this upon an impressionable 11 year old girl. And our responsibility to be more caring and nurturing to the younger groups in the case that they have probably not considered every aspect of what it means to become an entertainer of that magnitude but we should know better. Or is it really our responsibility? Her parents say it is OK, why should the judge care? She's not his kid? After all what does the number 1 in Hollywood Reporter's Top 50 Most Powerful in Reality TV know about it? I am sure her parents have considered it all very carefully and weren't at all influenced by the thought of the millions she could make, right?
On a very important closing... please watch the following 60 minutes interview with Simon and let me know if you think he cares about that girl or her dreams in any other way than how it is going to make him some money... and what exactly it means to follow any advice from that man...

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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:39 pm

Style and quality (good quality vs poor quality) of clothing are quite different as your example of the bank employee points out. If the girls style had been right and the clothes clean and well cared for, I don't believe the judge would have made the comments he did. The judge was referring to the style and not the quality of the clothing. You can have good and poor quality in all kinds of styles and I believe in this case he meant "change the style".

On a very important closing... You do know it was not Simon that made that comment =0/ right??? Have you actually listened to the comment first hand we are discusssing? =0o Simon's role is to be a jerk and he seems quite natural and good at it, but he is not the judge whose comment we are discussing.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby Ryan » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:48 pm

George wrote:On a very important closing... You do know it was not Simon that made that comment =0/ right??? Have you actually listened to the comment first hand we are discusssing? =0o Simon's role is to be a jerk and he seems quite natural and good at it, but he is not the judge whose comment we are discussing.
=0) You do know that Simon Cowell is the producer of the "America's got Talent" show, and that Simon Cowell picked Piers Morgan (the judge that made the comment) to replace himself because of his contract with "American Idol", right???
=0o

George wrote:You can have good and poor quality in all kinds of styles and I believe in this case he meant "change the style".
Hmmm.... that's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Look, it's simple really... it is just a business... it goes over well on both ends because the show is just an elaborate marketing platform. They take "normal" people and pit them against one another in a talent contest. As the weeks unfold the judges are suggesting this change and that change to find out exactly how "manageable" they are. The best "performers" that are left win the recording contract with Sony DMG and they spit out an album as quickly as possible. The album sells well because the TV station has been marketing the contestants thoroughly and after that nothing. More than likely you will never hear another thing out of the performers. And Simon Cowell and Sony DMG moved on to the next ones. This happens 36 times over on just "Idol" shows world wide! Not to mention the other shows Simon Cowell has. But the bottom line... if those performers are not manageable... they aren't going to get the contract... and if they get the contract and then become unmanageable Sony DMG is just going to sit on the label until it is too late... it's business.. it isn't entertainment... it is a ploy to get people to get up and make fools of themselves and/or to give some false hope and to make a selected few massive amounts of money... and that is it.

And yes, George... you can look at the surface and say I am reading too much into things and making more out of it all than what is actually there, or you can open your eyes and see things for what they are... Come on George! You really think those people spend millions to have a talent show to "help" out some average people so that they can finally get their "big break"? That is a bit naive wouldn't you say? This is big business and each one of those contestants are going to be exploited for everything they can be exploited for... and then dropped just as fast when they aren't making anymore money for them. They want to make quick fad pop stars and keep them rolling out to keep the big bucks moving in.
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Re: How much is your soul worth

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:18 pm

This discussion has somehow changed from one judges comments on one performance to an appraisal of the ethics of big business and entertainment. I agree with most of your philosophy on that......... it is questionable how the overall positive influence on the young people is balanced with the profit and ratings motive in events such as this.

My original comment was concerning Sabinas "anger" at what the judge said and how he said it. I just thought (and still do) that the overall comment by that judge for that performance were appropriate. (although a little dramatic for effect) thats all. =0/

It seems to me you have taken a specific comment about a specific performance and what that meant and turned it into a general ethical issue which was not the subject or intent of the original comment. I understand that you feel that comment is a reflection of a general issue (big time TV talent shows) which you feel is not good, positive or ethical.

I agree, big time entertainment is fraught with minefields of personal tragedy caused by the profit and greed motives of those in charge.

Having said that, and understanding the philosophy of Sabinas comments, my opinion of the appropriateness of being angered by that one specific comment in that one specific performance has not changed. <3
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