Good people and bad people

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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:22 pm

Thank you Pat for this sharing. I can not say much after Sabina gave her answer as it explains exactly how I feel and what I would also say. I gave Sabina Kudos for that answer.
In spite the fact that you still feel regret, your ability to tell us one of your life lessons stories shows that you are aware what that boy had brought to you, which is awareness about your fears and how they influence your choices. As much as I know you it has influenced you in the sense to become fearless helping others to change the same.
The boy was a kind of Pay it forward example for you making you possible to become the same for others.


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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Pat » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:43 am

Sabina wrote:
Pat wrote:I guess my feeling is that if we label people good and bad then we respond to them that way and that is not allowing things to be what they can be...

Just because we label them good or bad doesn't necessarily have to mean that we will respond to them "that way" though, right?
I know what you mean, and I understand that for most people it is easy to judge not only an action as bad, but the person as a whole as well, and as a result give up on them all together. But, it doesn't have to be that way.
We can judge an action as bad, we can even judge a person as bad, and still decide to not just label them and throw them into the "appropriate" drawer. You know.. the drawer for unsolvable cases.

Just because I dare call something good or bad shouldn't lead anyone to believe that my reaction to the good and to the bad is predictable.
Because it is not.
:)

Sabina


I don't think predictable is what i was going for ... what we say to ourselves about something be it good or bad we will then respond to it accordingly... we react to the image we carry or idea of something reinforcing the original belief.
I am not making myself very clear sorry..
:)
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Pat » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:57 am

Sabina wrote:Dear Pat,

This story is a nice connection between this topic and "Choices"

A large percentage of a busy modern life is done in a kind of automatism, and I think that it is very easy for people to get lost in this automatism, kind of like being on auto-pilot.

If you want what visible reality can give, you're an employee.
If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth.
Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting
that what you really want is love's confusing joy.

"Visible Reality" by Rumi

That is where your question about being awakened (from the Choices topic) comes into play. Would you say that you were awakened back at that time, or did your awakening come after this? Was it in any way connected to this event?

I think most people have some event in their past that they regretted at some point in their life.
The most important question, in my opinion, is if this event was in vain or not. As far as I know you, it was not in vain.. because even if you acted out of fear at that time, the feeling of shame or regret or whatever emotion it was that you felt afterward, and according to you even sometimes today, has helped you to change. To become more fearless. To not let fear be the force that guides you.
And in that sense, if that is true and your reality now, then you should only be grateful for what happened, and not feel any shame nor regret, because you are not the same person anymore and your actions today, if given another opportunity, would be different than back then.

Humans make mistakes sometimes, but we can either let our mistakes define us, or learn from them and evolve.

Sabina

I think this event helped my growth in that it let me realize what the extent of fear could do to me. As for becoming aware or awakened i had a couple of experiences in my early twenties that started me in the direction of becoming aware and and the concept of a universal intelligence.

I may at times feel regret for this action of mine but I also realize that is part of my journey and I learned from it.
:)
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Sabina » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:27 am

Pat wrote:I don't think predictable is what i was going for ... what we say to ourselves about something be it good or bad we will then respond to it accordingly... we react to the image we carry or idea of something reinforcing the original belief.
I am not making myself very clear sorry..


I understand what you are saying, Pat, and it might be so for the majority of people, but I don't think it has to be that way.

It basically has to do with how "prejudiced" we are, in the sense of how much we cling to our own beliefs. I don't think that things are so simple and that just because we carry a certain belief, that then being put in a situation to test that belief, we will act our worst - in a way.

Here is a slightly silly illustration for what I am trying to say.

Let's say that I think that everyone should wear beige pants, because for me they represent a natural material, and let's also assume that I have strong feelings about this.
I talk about the necessity for beige pants to all my friends, I write articles about it,...
My views are not only known to me, but I have also publicly shared them.

Then, one day, I meet a person who wears red pants.
My insides scream and I ask them why they wear red pants when beige pants are so much better and more natural.
They reply explaining that the pants they wear are natural as well, they made them themselves, dyed them, the whole thing.
Now I have a few options.
1- I can be stubborn and try to convince them that their process is not as natural, and that by wearing red pants they are promoting something that at least looks artificial.
2- I can walk away and continue to talk about beige pants to other candidates, or
3- I can find out more about the red pants, how they did what they did, take that knowledge with me, and spread it as enthusiastically as I previously spread the preachings of beige pants.

There are probably more options on what I could do, but I believe they would probably be variations of these three.


I think that a lot of people would either choose option 1 or option 2, and in that sense, what you said is correct. When I say it doesn't have to be that way, I am referring to the 3rd option.
So, just because something doesn't fit into our world view, and opinions we had up to that point, it doesn't mean that we cannot excel in a certain situation, admit that we were being too extreme, and from then on always leave a space for the possibility that such things might happen again in the future.

Sabina
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Pat » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:43 am

Interesting take on it Sabina but I still don't think I have adequately gotten my thought across...or perhaps I have an d am too stubborn to see it :)

As an example of what I am thinking of. if we know someone to be a certain way , loving or hateful when we see them or call them to mind we react to the image or person with the idea of them being a loving or person or hateful.. If we do not put a judgment or we may say preconceived notion on the person then we leave the door open for the person to be anything. If we hold an image of just so in our minds then we will allow for all possibilities.
:)
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby alija » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:13 pm

Pat wrote:Hi Mirjana
It is not that much of a story but it is a choice that I made and regretted for long time.
About 25 years ago I had the opportunity to take a young man into my home who had aids and was thrown out of his house by his parents because he was gay and they found out because of aids.
::::::::::::::::::
I still struggle with the decision that I made. I made a choice because of my fear.


Hi Pat, as well as the others,
From my point of view to talk about god or bad man is a blasphemy. We have no mean to measure if one man is bad or good. Being divine creation each man is a priory good.
System needs and creates this kind of vocabulary in order to easier control people. Just declare them bad and they need whole life, in some cases, to prove they are innocent.
Where are the limits between this two categories?
Knowing and not doubting in the mirroring processes, I would say any person being ready to declare someone as a bad person is finding something of his, own, traits in this bad person.
No, there are no bad persons, there are some bad deeds, actions which have been caused by causes and conditions unknown to us.
Your story Pat is also very interesting.
I think you did a good thing not accepting that AIDS guy in your house. This fear created conflict with your innate intelligence what resulted in a kind of catharses.
I see it this way.
Namasthe and love!
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Sabina » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:57 pm

alija wrote:Just declare them bad and they need whole life, in some cases, to prove they are innocent.

This has nothing to do with any system. This has to do with people and their limitations.
But, it doesn't have to be that way!

Right now when someone hears "good people" or "bad people", and shrieks, that may be because of a judgmental society. So let's not heal the symptoms, but the cause instead. That's usually the better way to do things. Better in the sense that is lasts longer, because it takes care of the actual problem and not just the manifestation.

An allergy to terms such as good people and bad people is a manifestation, a symptom. That is not the part that needs to be "fixed". To avoid these phrases won't help anything in my opinion. People will then simply think of other ways to word the same thing. It's pointless.

A healthy society is the only real solution, and a healthy society begins with healthy individuals.

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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby GenerousGeorge » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:26 am

Good Topic! It is certainly not a simple question. Perhaps good and bad is all relative and a matter of perspective. Most of the Christians I know say it all comes from God and without him we are basically sinners and don't know good from bad. I don't agree with them on that premise, but that is another topic.

One test for me if an action or outlook of mine is good or bad is WHO am I concerned about. If it is me and my ego there is a good chance I'm heading toward the bad side of town. If I am putting myself in anothers place and then trying to help that persons well being etc. I am probably heading for the good side of the tracks.

Trouble is, I am good at fooling myself about what I am doing and why. Denial and self interest is a pwerful force for disguising bad as good. Just look at any group of children together. With their imaginations they can view themselves as the "good guy" no matter what their self interest and motives actually are. They always have an out........ "The dog ate my homework." etc.

In my experience as we grow older and more "sophisticated" we become better and better at that, until we have a self image of ourselves and the world that serves our concept of who we are. Within that concept is everything we consider good or evil. In the end we have "grown ups" who can send young people to war and unimaginable suffering for them and the "enemy" all the time thinking he/she is a good person, doing the right thing. Some even think they are doing God's will and have received direction directly for him. Jeezy Peezy..."What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." (ourselves and others that is)

In the end, as I grow older, I try more and to answer questions like this in a way that rings true to my inner self. It is a good test of my ability to be honest with myself. The old adage, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." Is a good place to start answering the question what is the definition of good and bad for you.

In the end what is good or bad is a matter of personal view and result of your own journey. Unless you believe in an omnipotent God who is the final authority for good and evil, you have to look to yourself.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby Alvino » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:40 am

George, I understood you to conclude that if you are concerned about yourself = your own ego you will be Bad.
I am very much concerned (in love with myself and all humans) about myself so my utmost goal is to make choices and do only those things that would cause others to view me as being a Saint or Saint like.
Truly loving oneself
includes owning and practicing a deep respect for myself, consequently, I will not hang out with people with obscene talk dispositions or those who deliberately cause emotional or physical harm to others and
I will make some attempt to defend the weak and to guide those who do talk obscenely or show a lack of respect for themselves or others to CHANGE THEIR ways, if possible.

You can love yourself and use This self love as Motivation to do only good = good being
DOING only those things which will NOT cause harm to myself or others or NATURE.
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Re: Good people and bad people

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:56 am

Hi Alvino .....it was not my intention to equate self love with ego. I believe they are different. Ego is about...."I want" often to the exclusion of someone else getting the same thing, self love is about..... "I am satisfied and happy with myself and how I deal with people and the world, I see myself as a good and loving person" etc.
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