Giving and receiving

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Re: Giving and receiving

Postby mirjana » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:45 pm

Sabina wrote:
I have two questions for you...
1. Is it ever possible for one person to only be the giver and the other only the taker?

No, I do not think that it is possible.
Sabina wrote:
2. Is it ever possible for one person to give/take but give much more than they take, while actually craving a more balanced relationship?

Even if it would be possible, who is the one who would judge it? The one who considers self as more giver? That is exactly why I said in the previous answer that it would be again only personal opinion which shouldn't inevitably be the correct one. I tried to express it in the previous answers (2 and 3).
Let's suppose something. I shall take myself as a role example.
Let's say that I consider myself as more giver than taker. Based on that I could only enjoy this without complains or I should complain asking for the balance. And then, I realize that the person who I considered as more taker considers him/herself the same way, as more giver in the relationship. The talk shows that there have been things I have taken for granted being protected in a certain way, the same as that person has taken some things I have been doing for granted.
The situation like that is very possible and happens quite often. People live in their relationships giving themselves certain privileged or noble roles and taking the same time such a possibility from another. Actually it only points the relativity or subjectivity of approach. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a healthy relationship. Although, again, the question what is healthy and what is not, could be interesting to answer. I remember that recently you have mentioned the movie about the relationship that for all people around would be consider as unhealthy, but it was perfect for the couple involved.
We have all rights to see ourselves however we want, as long as it goes. When the other shows not acceptance, then the process opens that if we really want to work it out, I believe, will always point that things are not only like we personally observe them.
Sabina wrote:
Or is the person who thinks they are giving more than they are receiving always delusional?

I think that I have already answered this question too.
Nice brain working...at least for me good exchange of thoughts.
=0)
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Re: Giving and receiving

Postby Sabina » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:16 pm

mirjana wrote:I remember that recently you have mentioned the movie about the relationship that for all people around would be consider as unhealthy, but it was perfect for the couple involved.

Literally speaking, the people outside of their relationship had no idea what's going on inside.. only us, the audience knew and was therefore given the possibility to judge.
We are not talking about a couple which is in harmony.

I asked these questions for a specific reason, and that is because givers sometimes have the tendency to diminuate their own role and how much they give. A giver who gives with pleasure but actually yearns for a balanced relationship has sometimes the tendency to "rationalize" their own role and how much they give.. and they don't allow themselves to ask for what they really want - the balance.

I am not talking about myself here... so there is no subjectivity involved. I have observed this and it angers me, because no.. the giver is not happy.. the giver does want balance. Since they don't get it, they brainwash themselves or allow the taker to brainwash them so they wind up believing that they are just not being grateful.
The logics? None whatsoever! Harmony or balance? No. Happiness? Not really. That's what I'm talking about.

Spiritual advice is great... but it should never ever be used to manipulate anyone!!!
.......
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Giving and receiving

Postby mirjana » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:39 pm

Sabina wrote:...
I am not talking about myself here... so there is no subjectivity involved. I have observed this and it angers me, because no.. the giver is not happy.. the giver does want balance. Since they don't get it, they brainwash themselves or allow the taker to brainwash them so they wind up believing that they are just not being grateful.
The logics? None whatsoever! Harmony or balance? No. Happiness? Not really. That's what I'm talking about.
Spiritual advice is great... but it should never ever be used to manipulate anyone!!!
.......

You are right Sabina that we can observe things like that and see all that what you have said about giver. Me, who could easily put myself in the role of giver of the kind you mentioned, quite aware that I am not washing my brain, am aware of the possibility to overview certain things from the position of an arrogant giver. Giver of that kind could also be manipulators, consciously or unconsciously, which means presenting things in the way that put them into such position. On the other hand, so called taker could be a type who doesn't speak much about that what is his/her contribution and not talking about that actually has even more right not to be aware of giving of another. S/he is just not much aware of giving in any form. The giver, who is aware of self giving, and other considers as a taker, is the one who should be more willing to introspect all sides, because with the observation of self as a giver only shows that this is more important to Her/him.
As about spiritual advice, I agree, although again, before agreeing it would be more appropriate to know what we mean by the words spiritual advice and manipulation.
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Re: Giving and receiving

Postby Sabina » Fri May 28, 2010 8:26 pm

Another thing to consider is that something similar to the Dunning-Kruger effect can apply here as well.
Mirjana already pointed this out when she wrote...
"Even if it would be possible, who is the one who would judge it? The one who considers self as more giver? That is exactly why I said in the previous answer that it would be again only personal opinion which shouldn't inevitably be the correct one."

The bottom line is that all of this can be simplified considerably.
The giving tree would never think of itself as the caretaker or the giver. It does what it does happily, and there are no harmful side-effects to its giving, not according to the tree anyway.
Any person who describes their life pattern as that of the giver or the caretaker are basically either cowards or liars.

Why cowards?
They again and again find themselves in a situation in which they are the giver or the caretaker, but they feel misused, even if it is unconscious. So they are the victim, over and over again. They get used to this role and don't change their circumstances in order to keep the victimized status.

Why liars?
Simply put, misrepresentation of facts. They are somewhat delusional, and always see themselves as the giver or caretaker even if that is not so. They are lying to themselves and consequently to everyone else as well.

Because if they are a true giver or caretaker, then they wouldn't feel oppressed by this role. They wouldn't be a victim in any of these situations.

One can definitely be a giver and a caretaker (or a victim) occasionally.... whether one enjoys it or not. To find yourself in that situation is always a possibility.
What happens then?
    1) You will either happily accept this role and therefore keep it, or
    2) If you don't like it, then you change it!
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Giving and receiving

Postby mirjana » Mon May 31, 2010 9:00 pm

This is very good answering Sabina. Additionally to that I would say that so called taker is a giver the same time because without the subject for giving, giving wouldn't be possible. I think that we neglect the role of taker. Without the one who takes there wouldn't be the one who gives.
1) We all should either happily accept any role we choose by keeping it, or
2) Anything we do not like we should change.
3) In most cases what is in between belongs to some of psychological disorders.
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