Friendship between Men and Women

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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:12 pm

Good replies Ryan. Good conversation. We are remaining civilized and reasonable about a sensitive and inflammatory subject.


"in closing to lusting, George wrote:I don't know Maybe I am unique in that way, but most of the men I know seem very similar in that regard........Terrific...well that's a start...
:) A start toward what? Correcting my improper thoughts that I have and teaching me how to control them so I either don't have them or can deal with them. I do deal with them, I'm just being honest about what they are. Do you believe that lust and a society that seems to encourage that is a symptom of man's sinful nature?

To your further points, when a desirable women bends over instinct overrides societal conditioning. It is not a matter of societies standards, or concept of beauty, is the evolutionary, biological instincts to procreate the race that kick in. Ryan, you seem to be an idealist, which is fine for me, I may be in many areas as well.

We may not be as far apart as we seem on our views. The truth is often different when viewed from many angles/viewpoints.

As an aside however, I don't regard the preacher at the church I attend with my family to be the ultimate source of truth for "proper sexual behaviour".

With regard to investment, I agree women don't try to look beautiful and appealing to get men in the sack. (some may, don't know) The point is sexual attraction is a very important element in the equation whatever the believed ultimate intentions are.


as an initial post to the topic, Ryan wrote:
Maybe those that have never had a relationship with the opposite gender that wasn't, in one way or another, based upon a sexual interest are those that are more a product of the imposed social standards?

Hmmmm interesting theory and speculation, but it is speculation.

Ryan said......"Or that the number of females you have been with is a measure of what a real man is. In that if you have only been with one woman your entire life you are naive and inexperienced and that you have no grounds to know what you are talking about when it comes to women... but I ask you... who knows women more... those who treat women like sexual objects or those who treat women as equals and approaches them with a genuine concern to get to know them as a person without any hidden motives?"

This is the second time you have mentioned number of sexual experiences as a measure of a "real man". Why do you think most ?? men think this way? I find that to be a minority of men's attitudes about sex.

Your question concerning who know more ....... men who treat women like sexual objects or those with a genuine concern to know them......... is a huge over simplification. It seems that you are assuming that all men who recognize the sexual instinct treat women as sexual objects and do not have a genuine concern about "really knowing" the person.

If you choose your female friends from those who share a common philosophy (or even religion) with you, you have a limited sample of pre-conditioned women from whom to learn "how women think".

Actually the subject is not how how do women think, it is how do people think and react to their genetic programming. The more and different people you know and become close to, the more your overall knowledge of people (including women) can grow. Groups that share similar ideas because of similar backgrounds reinforce each others beliefs.

Thats why I like this forum, it is an opportunity to share beliefs and grow spiritually and mentally.

Respectfully submitted.. :)

George
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:10 pm

Quite an epic discussion alright...

George wrote::) A start toward what? Correcting my improper thoughts that I have and teaching me how to control them so I either don't have them or can deal with them. I do deal with them, I'm just being honest about what they are. Do you believe that lust and a society that seems to encourage that is a symptom of man's sinful nature?
No, a start toward digging down to the essence of matters... I do not wish to change anyone's thoughts or assume to know how they are to deal with things. I just don't understand the approach and explanation and you seem to be speaking for yourself and those men you know who have a similar approach...by your own words. To me that seems like a pretty good start on a wider scale...it certainly doesn't address all men... as I am a man and have another approach...I am sure there are probably more explanations to even similar approaches that might appear to be the same on the surface but once digging further we could discover a whole new series of motivations. I do not believe in "sin" there is not such thing in my opinion. "Sin" is a term coined by religion to control the masses.

George wrote:To your further points, when a desirable women bends over instinct overrides societal conditioning. It is not a matter of societies standards, or concept of beauty, is the evolutionary, biological instincts to procreate the race that kick in. Ryan, you seem to be an idealist, which is fine for me, I may be in many areas as well.
To stick to your words...a desirable woman would mean that there was already a sexual interest before she bent over and therefore you were already watching her... otherwise you probably wouldn't notice she bent over. None the less I do not understand what is biological or evolutionary about the reaction... Is it that you see the male species, biologically and evolutionarily, as that being's sole...or at least most fundamental reason for existence is to reproduce? I am not sure what you mean by idealist, or why you might think that I am an idealist...I speak only from my own approach, experiences, and understanding of things.

George wrote:We may not be as far apart as we seem on our views. The truth is often different when viewed from many angles/viewpoints.
Possibly... let's find out, shall we?

George wrote:As an aside however, I don't regard the preacher at the church I attend with my family to be the ultimate source of truth for "proper sexual behaviour".
As well you shouldn't. The Catholic priest doesn't even have sex... and as for my own experiences with Baptist preachers... well I never saw much Love in the nest... I don't have much experience with other denominations of the Christian faith so I can't say much else...

George wrote:With regard to investment, I agree women don't try to look beautiful and appealing to get men in the sack. (some may, don't know) The point is sexual attraction is a very important element in the equation whatever the believed ultimate intentions are.
Oh now...come on how many women who have made such investments would have trouble finding some guy to jump in the sack with them without those investments (if it was just about sex)?? So you are saying that because sexual attraction is an important part of the equation the only logical deduction, as to why, is because it is fundamentally what the male of the human species is...a sperm machine?

George wrote:Hmmmm interesting theory and speculation, but it is speculation.
Why is it speculation? I provide many comparison from nature and explanations as to why it all does not reach the conclusion as to how it could be considered a completely natural approach. I have also provided logical explanations as to the social contributions and effects. I am trying to only walk this through a path of logical deduction based upon natural and historical references... I don't mean to speculate...maybe I just wasn't clear enough with my explanation of my understanding and you found that it had no solid ground on which to be presented. If you tell me what was speculation maybe I could clarify?

George wrote:This is the second time you have mentioned number of sexual experiences as a measure of a "real man". Why do you think most ?? men think this way? I find that to be a minority of men's attitudes about sex.
I do not think "most" men think that way, but I know that it is one approach. (Arthur Fonzarelli or James Bond to name a couple of the most known examples)

George wrote:Your question concerning who know more ....... men who treat women like sexual objects or those with a genuine concern to know them......... is a huge over simplification. It seems that you are assuming that all men who recognize the sexual instinct treat women as sexual objects and do not have a genuine concern about "really knowing" the person.
No, I don't make it a habit to group people, to generalize, or assume. I was only taking in contrast the two extremes... not that the outcome really has any bearing on the implications of cross gender relationships without sexual connotation.

George wrote:Actually the subject is not how how do women think, it is how do people think and react to their genetic programming. The more and different people you know and become close to, the more your overall knowledge of people (including women) can grow. Groups that share similar ideas because of similar backgrounds reinforce each others beliefs.
Exactly!! So...are you sexually attracted to every woman you meet and become friends with?
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:34 pm

Sorry for replying so late, ADD! =0o

Toward digging toward the essence of the matter.....YES.....I am sexually attracted to EVERY WOMAN I MEET!80S No, just kidding, I think. =0/

Actually, on reflection I have often become sexually attracted to someone after learning what they are all about. (One of the dangers of this men/women friends thing!) A sexual relationship is often something that stems from intimacy gained through sharing human experience.

To your second point, I suspect the sexual attraction of a sexy rear is not a learned response. Wheras observing the person in casual way is not necessarily sexual attraction, it could turn into sexual interest (in a heartbeat B0) )

In my way of thinking an idealist might say to himself, I am not supposed to react this way (society/religion says so!) so I will formulate and adhere to the "ideal" reaction I am told by society that is correct for that situation.

To your point about womens investment in looking attractive......it is not about being able to attract any guy into the "Horizontal Mambo", it is about getting
"Mr Right" i.e. "Mr Wonderful" interested. The other guys are just "collateral damage". 80S

Speculation means without corroborating evidence and by attempting to correlate behavious from different species that are not really related.


Arthur Fonzarelli or James Bond to name a couple of the most known examples They are fictional characters and an exaggerated satiracle example of what you speak and not evidence of real peoples philosophy.
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby Sabina » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:22 pm

It's almost a pity to interrupt your discussion, but I have some additional thoughts and questions that I would like to throw in here.

GenerousGeorge wrote:Actually, on reflection I have often become sexually attracted to someone after learning what they are all about. (One of the dangers of this men/women friends thing!) A sexual relationship is often something that stems from intimacy gained through sharing human experience.

I agree that this is a real "danger", but... doesn't this also depend on whether you are currently in a happy relationship or not?
Or does not have any bearing on it?
I think for me it definitely plays a role, because if I am happy and fulfilled in a relationship, then I see men more "gender-neutral".
I am still capable of noticing if someone is attractive (physically, mentally or otherwise), regardless of their gender, but my personal antennas are somehow off. I register it, but there is no reaction, no desire to do something about it.
So... I was just curious if that plays any role at all in your case.

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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:37 pm

Sabina, good question, perhaps that could play a role in what actions you take about whatever attraction might occur through a close friendship relationship, but attraction itself probably does not vary according to ones state of satisfaction with their significant other. What varies is the susceptibility to act on that attraction.

As far as my personal situation the Bible warns about the dangers of a husband and wife being unequally yoked with one partner a Christian and the other not. The pressures of Christianity to have all conform to their beliefs and to have "Christian Families" influence their children in their formative years about the invisible guy is certainly a complicating factor in happy relationships.
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:40 pm

I see I did not answer completely.....the answer is no...... my current relationship does not affect my attraction or lack of attraction to other women. It could affect what I might do about that attraction, and my personal philosophy and life style is not to act on that attraction knowing the overall adverse effects that might have on my family. My family is my priority,
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby Ryan » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:31 pm

George wrote:Sorry for replying so late, ADD! =0o

LOL!! (not to make fun of your disorder...) No problem, but I have kind of lost my momentum... I know guys that treat sex as a competition...with themselves, others in their surrounding (another that comes to mind is Sam Malone...fictional Cheers bar tender) and even though the "popular" ones I presented are fictional characters they are based upon a social cliche which does exist... I am not trying to imply it is your motivation I am just trying to explain my insistent presentation as it being one approach.

You state that regardless of the condition of the relationship you are in you would still have inner feelings of (you didn't state the word "sexual" only attraction and please feel free to correct me if I am miss quoting you) sexual attraction to other beautiful females. So you are telling me that no matter what, you could never find a woman that could feel secure in knowing that she is the only person you would ever desire to be with physically... and how would you feel if you had the same knowledge of your partner? Meaning that your wife( I know you are married but it's just for the sake of the discussion)/ girlfriend is sexually attracted to all handsome men... and she also has sexual feelings toward the not so handsome through a developed intimate friendship. However she explains that she would never act on these feelings out of duty as your wife/girlfriend. (I didn't say you said that...I am just giving that as an imaginary explanation from an imaginary wife/girlfriend) You would understand and it wouldn't phase you in the slightest, right?
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby mirjana » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:33 pm

Hi,
What a great talk here...beautiful, I have been enjoying...
Sabina, your words:"I agree that this is a real "danger", but... doesn't this also depend on whether you are currently in a happy relationship or not?" are for me turning point. Why?
I am so much follower of Plato´s idea about the soul searching another half. I understand this like having a partner with whom one can explore personal individuality as being able to have a daily witness for all layers of these development, which makes the whole process be more objective, changing and evolving. If we are so lucky to have a partner who fulfils most of our needs, then our approach toward other sex will be less marked with the natural instinct for finding a partner to make our species to live further (sex is a driving force) and we are able to find friends based on the compatibility in these other missing aspects we also need to explore, but our partner is not able to give it.
The danger is that sometimes we are not so much able to know what is more or less important to us until finding in the situation of discovery.
I think that the difference between soul mate and kindred soul expresses it beautifully.
But this is another topic.
=0)

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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:38 pm

Ryan said....."So you are telling me that no matter what, you could never find a woman that could feel secure in knowing that she is the only person you would ever desire to be with physically... and how would you feel if you had the same knowledge of your partner?"

I'm not sure that is exactly what I'm saying. In any event, my ideal woman would not be so insecure of my loyalty or sexual fidelity that I would have to lie about the natural thoughts men have about beautiful women to keep her happy and feeling secure in the relationship.

My wife can feel secure that she is important enough to me that I would never act on such a base impulse. If her expectation is that I am never going to be attracted sexually to another woman, I could not promise that, nor do I think it is a reasonable or respectful request or that it should be a requirement for the ideal relationship.

Ryan also said......"she also has sexual feelings toward the not so handsome through a developed intimate friendship. However she explains that she would never act on these feelings out of duty as your wife/girlfriend. (I didn't say you said that...I am just giving that as an imaginary explanation from an imaginary wife/girlfriend) You would understand and it wouldn't phase you in the slightest, right?"

I think fidelity and not acting on every impulse or attraction is what honors and enhances a relationship, not the requirement that I not even "think" another woman is atractive. Bost parties need to be secure that the other loves them and will honor the relationship no matter what.

I would not be negatively impacted at all if my wife thought some "Hunk" was hot! It is what she does that really matters not the requirement she be so perfect other good looking guys have no attraction at all to her.
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Re: Friendship between Men and Women

Postby Sabina » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:51 pm

I don't think anyone would ever disagree that honesty and respect are much much more important in a relationship than "the attraction factor", so whether you are attracted to other women or not.
Actually.. is being attracted to a woman and thinking that she is attractive the same thing?
I think it's not.
Thinking that she is attractive can be a statement, like stating a fact.
Being attracted to her means more than that though, doesn't it?
Just how much more exactly?

If you are attracted to someone, then doesn't that imply that there is a desire present to do something about it?
You can of course still choose not to do anything, but it does cross your mind.
If you state that someone is a attractive/handsome/beautiful/etc. then that is only stating a fact, or an opinion, but it doesn't imply a personal interest - in my opinion - at this moment.
=0X

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