Freedom

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Freedom

Postby TruthTrek » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:53 pm

Hello everyone, this is my first post here and I would like to start out by saying, I really like this site and look forward to future discussions.(please excuse any spelling or grammical errors I may post, I am a software engineer not a english professor =0) )

What does freedom really mean? From as long as I can remember I was told that I am a free man. The longer I ponder that the more I come to realize, I am not a free man. For every law that is passed that prohibits you to do something it is a freedom taken away. I am not saying we should live in anarchy. There are a lot of laws that I fully agree with. You should not hurt anyone without consequenses. But what about those victimless laws that get passed for everyday. I feel that for ever victimless laws that gets passed that a little bit of freedom gets stripped from us. Where does the line of freedom end and tryanny begin?
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Re: Freedom

Postby Sabina » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:44 pm

Hello TruthTrek and welcome to DS!

We've had a few variations of this topic that might be interesting to you.
- Good people & bad people
- Choices, to a certain degree
- Apathetic observer (in the Imagination Exercises forum), where Ryan's reply somehow poses the same problem you are asking here.

TruthTrek wrote:Where does the line of freedom end and tyranny begin?

It's a very good question, not only on the level of society, but also applied on smaller scale, in everyday life.

You used the term victimless laws, but that's only taken strictly in the sense of a life/death victim, right? Because otherwise you could say that there is victim for almost any "crime" committed, and then there are no victimless laws.
Perhaps you meant victimless laws in a different sense though, I am not sure.
How did you mean it?

Sabina

PS: Spelling or grammatical errors are less important. You are a software engineer, to someone else here (me included) English is a second or third language, as long as we all make an attempt to be as precise as we can and understand each other, the insignificant details (e.g. typos) can be ignored - I think. :)
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Re: Freedom

Postby TruthTrek » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:08 pm

Sabina, when I say victimless crime, what I mean by that is, a law was violated but nobody was hurt. I think the best example to give is the seatbelt laws. Why are they forcing me to wear a seatbelt. It has nothing to do with other people, only me? There are many other example to this. But where do we draw the line between freedom and tyranny?
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Re: Freedom

Postby Sabina » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:31 pm

Ok.. I understand now. I tried to think of some good explanation, if nothing else then for the sake of debate (spirited debate and all that), but I can't, because I agree with you.

So if there are only freedom and tyranny, white and black, with nothing in between, then it would mean that we currently live in tyranny, tendency rising. So why don't people revolt? Perhaps that's a different story, separate topic, I'm not sure.

When you ask "where do we draw the line", what exactly do you mean?
Let's say the seat belt law has crossed the line.
What then?

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Re: Freedom

Postby mirjana » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:29 am

Hi TruthTrek , welcome to Deep Spirits. =0)
You started a very interesting topic which is very complex. I know that the example you took about seat belt is quite a common problem and many of my friends share your opinion. Many of them ignore that law and that is their answer, until they are caught. Then they pay, as it seems that nothing in life comes for free, including freedom.
It seems that we are aware of freedom only when we lose it. Are you aware of that how free really you are, or not?
We are free to live where we want, to learn what we want, to chose belonging, we are free to make choices, even those to fight the rules we do not like. And we can do all that.
I think that truly lost freedom is when you can not do anything about a certain thing and you feel a deep feeling of injustice. Not being able to react on injustice is the manifestation of not having freedom.
Unfortunately there are many moments in life when people make such choices even if they don´t need to.


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Re: Freedom

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:10 am

mirjana wrote:Not being able to react on injustice is the manifestation of not having freedom.
Unfortunately there are many moments in life when people make such choices even if they don´t need to.


I don't understand. Could you please explain the above?

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Re: Freedom

Postby mirjana » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:47 am

Sabina wrote:
mirjana wrote:Not being able to react on injustice is the manifestation of not having freedom.
Unfortunately there are many moments in life when people make such choices even if they don´t need to.


I don't understand. Could you please explain the above?

Sabina

You are confronting injustice. There are possible responses:
You react to that(free choice to do something whatever consequences)
You do not react, although you could, but you are frightened to lose something or...
You do not react because you are disabled to react.
These are all different manifestation of not having freedom.
We lose our freedom not only because it is taken from us, but because we took it ourselves.

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Re: Freedom

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:57 am

Those are different responses to an injustice, ok.
How would you apply these three responses to the case of the seat belt law?
What specifically would be the three possible responses?

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Re: Freedom

Postby Ryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:09 am

I understand the objection to all laws that do not protect one person's state of being from another (or group). I agree that there should not be any laws that attempt to protect me from myself. On the other hand this can creep into the grey areas as well. While I am a father, do I have the right to do whatever I want to myself or does my responsibility to my child override my own wants? I believe it does. I believe that it was my decision to bring a child into this world and I should consider that child and its future when contemplating my own. Then when you start considering more and more people who are influenced by the decisions you make for yourself it gets kind of deep.

However...(Sabina said)
Sabina wrote:A healthy society is the only real solution, and a healthy society begins with healthy individuals.
The whole problem is that governments are creating unhealthy people so that they can control them and make them do things without question, but as a result, laws have to be created to protect the unhealthy from themselves and each other because they have become too stupid to do it on their own.

Example: Work/ your job is your livelihood. Without it you can't live. To get to work you must drive because everything has been designed to make you need a car. Everyone is trying to get to work and traffic bottle necks. You are in a panic because you are running late. Someone cuts you off, you get ticked and crash into them, or worse yet, pull a gun and shoot him... Ok...lets make a law.. it is wrong to shoot people... We didn't know that? It's not obvious? Why are you even driving around with a gun?!?

There are too many unhealthy people... and the way it's being dealt with is not helping. You educate, not restrict. I'm all for consequence as a tool for teaching, but to remove the teaching and only impose constraint isn't it.

Also...just because there is a law against it doesn't remove your freedom to do it... it just imposes a consequence to getting caught. You still have the freedom to do it.
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Re: Freedom

Postby mirjana » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:15 pm

Sabina wrote:Those are different responses to an injustice, ok.
How would you apply these three responses to the case of the seat belt law?
What specifically would be the three possible responses?

Sabina



You react to that(free choice to do something whatever consequences)

If you consider that this is not acceptable for you , you do not use it and you are ready to meed consequences.
You do not react, although you could, but you are frightened to lose something or...
As you are frightenmed to be caught if not using seatbelt, although you don´t like them, you use them, as finding in the situation not to drive car for the sertain period of time will be even more drastical lack of freedom for you.
You do not react because you are disabled to react.
You are in somebody´s else's car and that person insist to use seat belt because of responsibility.
Again three choices and it goes quite far...
You are a child in the family, and whatever you think about it or feel about it, you can follow that as you do what your parents tell you to do. And this situation can help you to figure that by applying your sense for freedom you take somebody else´s freedom, in this case your child.

Who is able to estimate the whole chain of responsibilities that is connected with freedom?
Personal choice is always personal as all consequences connected with that.
Another question which comes out is to ask ourselves how often and how far we, personally have taken freedom or tried to do that, from someone else, convinced that we do it for the good of that person? Or in personal relationships, putting rules and self understanding expectations on the partner which is always in accordance with our personal world of rules, isn´t it again putting limitations on somebody´s freedom?


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