Free Will????

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Free Will????

Postby alija » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:42 am

Raymond Tallis - Free Will and the Brain



Neuroscience and free will




Neuroscience and free will



Kabbalah and Free Will


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Re: Free Will????

Postby Ryan » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:19 am

Uummm... thank you? I watched the videos... however I do not understand their purpose because you didn't write anything along with them as an explanation. I initially assumed that they were to prove we either have free will or we don't... However, the first clip (at about 2:00) the guy says "How much can science tell us about behavior? The answer is... not much." And in the end he concludes by comparing "neural science" to "neural mythology".

Also, considering that the guy also mentions MRIs and electrodes for measuring brain activity as being inconclusive in providing any proof of anything... I am at a loss as to why the next two clips were put there... as there whole approach is measuring electrical and chemical stimulation, using MRIs and electrodes, in the brain and trying to show that there is a time difference between when their brain knew what it was going to do and when they realized what they were going to do... I would like to see what happens when someone gets burned... how long does it take before they realize it?? If the brain is the canter where it all originates... or at least the physical connection between our spiritual self and our physical self then wouldn't it make sense that there is a time delay? The woman with the electrodes registered a 20th of a millisecond delay... or actually "build up to motor activity" and the other 6 seconds. Maybe the guy is just real dumb? Not real "quick on the take".

As for the last clip... it was very funny... his opening statement is "We don't know which of our actions are actually free... an... and which we just have an illusion of freedom. That's because we are blind to the laws and the forces that manage us and we assume that there is no management at all. So this gap in our perception, that's what we call free will.". Interesting... I can follow that... but then! All of a sudden he says "But we have no free will at all..." and he suddenly knows? And then he goes on to list four things he says we have no affect upon... and gives nothing to prove how we do not have any affect upon those things... or is it automatic that if there is no proof that we can affect them then it has to be that we can't?

Anyway... Like I said... I don't really get it... it would seem that they are meant to show how we do not have free will... but they wind up showing exactly how we still don't have proof either way...
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Re: Free Will????

Postby alija » Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:16 am

Hi Ryan,

"The woman with the electrodes registered a 20th of a millisecond delay... or actually "build up to motor activity" and the other 6 seconds. Maybe the guy is just real dumb? Not real "quick on the take".


Strange way of writing 2000 milliseconds or 2 seconds.

However, all these information are for our free will interpretations.
You know my opinion about free will and pre-programming of human kind.
Fortunately or unfortunately we have no and for a long time will not have consensus about this human attribute which in my opinion doesn´t belong to us at all, or maybe in a very small extent.

In any case it is very interesting to listen and watch neuroscientists, philosophers, physicists and others talking about this subject under "neurology of brain", "free will and neuroscience" and many other key words.
Namasthe
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Re: Free Will????

Postby tcm2164 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:50 pm

What a mind-bending topic. I just came across this article by Sam Harris titled:
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Re: Free Will????

Postby Metatron » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Just realized this topic was already here, so I decided to repost my post from the thread I started :)

After having watched the movie Waking Life (finally, I'm actually quite ashamed for having waited so long) the question of free will was once again stirred up in me.

Basically, my concern with free will was always the fact that pure freedom cannot exist, as we're governed by physical laws just like everything else, and then there are our own laws as well. This would suggest that there is no free will and we're nothing else but machines (a concept known as determinism). However, until now I've never really gone past that realization.

What happens when you find out that you have no free will? What do you do with the realization? I have come to modify my opinion on the matter, namely you can have free will but first you have to realize that you have none.

I mean, people in general live their lives according to the norm. I think that when we make decisions, the initially naked thought is modified by three things: whether we want to, have to, or are allowed to. All of these are some kinds of barriers, some predetermined attributes of our personality that we picked up during our growth. Even doing something we want to isn't really free will, because we're trying to act on the needs and urges of our bodies (at least as far as I can see, but of course correct me if you think I'm wrong).

So knowing this, how is free will achieved, or at least a pseudo free will? Imho, by contemplating all the possible alternatives to a decision and then picking the one that has a negative outcome, or at least an outcome that is least accepted by you or by society.

Wouldn't this however lead to anarchy? In order to be truly free we would have to defy as many laws as we can, so basically, to bypass every usual factor that modifies our decisions.

If you have better explanations, please enlighten me :)
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Re: Free Will????

Postby Metatron » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:56 pm

Actually, after having done some more thinking, here's what I've come to (although it's basically just a slight alteration of my previous post).

You acquire free will after the realization you were not born with it. This needs a conscious effort to make a different decision in a situation than what I would normally make. Meaning, find a new decision and a new reason for it. This is pretty much in harmony even with determinism itself.

Gee that wasn't so hard. Why haven't I thought of this before?
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Re: Free Will????

Postby Ryan » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:18 pm

LOL!!
You've had an entire conversation all by yourself. Please don't get me wrong, I am not laughing at you. I love you. But this has got to be one of the cutest posts yet.
=0@
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Re: Free Will????

Postby Jade » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:19 pm

Here are two quotes to add a little fuel to the fire. =0)

"Experts in ancient Greek culture say that people back then didn't see their thoughts as belonging to them. When ancient Greeks had a thought, it occurred to them as a god or goddess giving an order. Apollo was telling them to be brave. Athena was telling them to fall in love.

Now people hear a commercial for sour cream potato chips and rush out to buy, but now they call this free will.
At least the ancient Greeks were being honest."
— Chuck Palahniuk


"Dear Sir, poor sir, brave sir." he read, "You are an experiment by the Creator of the Universe. You are the only creature in the entire Universe who has free will. You are the only one who has to figure out what to do next - and why. Everybody else is a robot, a machine. Some persons seem to like you, and others seem to hate you, and you must wonder why. They are simply liking machines and hating machines. You are pooped and demoralized, " read Dwayne. "Why wouldn't you be? Of course it is exhausting, having to reason all the time in a universe which wasn't meant to be reasonable."
— Kurt Vonnegut (Breakfast of Champions)
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Re: Free Will????

Postby Metatron » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:32 pm

Ryan wrote:LOL!!
You've had an entire conversation all by yourself. Please don't get me wrong, I am not laughing at you. I love you. But this has got to be one of the cutest posts yet.
=0@


B0)

Btw Jade, loving the second quote!
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