Fear or Laziness

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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby ThePermster » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:25 pm

Ryan wrote:Yes, I am sure... and it is my understanding every creature is pretty good at breaking things... "A bull in a China Shop", Flocks of birds are very dangerous and destructive to airplanes, deer and horses have destroyed numerous cars, mice and rats are not very respectful of wiring in houses and cars, termites and ants are very destructive to vegetation and structures... the list goes on... and any expanding population of any creature is destructive if not kept in check... that's why we have hunting seasons... to control the populations of other species from causing us problems.


So then you disagree with your own argument for not believing in determinism?

Ryan wrote:Sorry... I couldn't find anywhere in your explanation as to how the pursuit of objective reasoning is important for you and how it affects your life and those around you. You continue to talk about "We" and "They" and other philosopher's thoughts and theories... If you would like to change the above sentence into a more personal one... like:
I have a life and it's in my best interest to lead it with worth. If I don't then why live it?


If it's relevant to all of mankind then why would I consider myself an exception to it? The pronouns used are really interchangeable and I'm not sure why you're stressing their importance? Especially when I was intending to highlight the ideology itself and not my own personal implementation of it 'cause the former is really the important bit and especially seeing as this very topic itself was made with the words of a particular philosopher in mind.

Ryan wrote:Seriously? That is pretty much just restating the question I asked...isn't it? I thought I was asking about the things that are in your "best interest". I mean as far as I understood the reason you do anything is in the pursuit of objective reasoning. To me that would be what you consider to be in your best interest... and I asked why is that so important to you. What changes in your life and those around you when you achieve objective reasoning...?


I think you misunderstand the nature and point of objective meaning, the only thing that changes upon acquisition of objective meaning is the simple property of having acquired it. Anything that's simply what "I consider to be in my best interest" is subjective meaning and not of interest to me.

Ryan wrote:Look... The point of my questioning and being stubborn about following this through is because I guarantee that the final result for why you do anything is in direct relation with an emotion. Generally happiness... You do what you do for a better life...more meaningful... whatever. Yet, if you can tell the difference between a better life or a worse life it is because of feeling and emotion...not logics. Logically we don't require electricity, huge plasma screen TV's, iPods, computers, or any technological creation. Logically, all there is is life, on this planet or another it doesn't matter. Life is life, and everything else serves no real purpose except pleasure or to make things easier which provides comfort. Comfort in that we don't have to starve, freeze, or roast in the summer heat. This is emotional because there, in essence, is no physical discomfort. What tells us we are hot or cold? It is just electrical impulses sent to our brains which our brains interpret. We give these signals deeper meaning by concluding they are either pleasurable or not. We all know that people have different pain thresholds and therefore pain and pleasure are not objective... they are subjective in nature.


This is an extremely naturalistic passage and like I've said I employ Pascal's Wager to justify not accepting the naturalism paradigm. Whether naturalism is truth or not I lose nothing of my life's worth.

Ryan wrote:The reasons why you believe, or feel, that pursuing objective reasoning is important is again subjective, not objective.


This rings about as true as responding to anything with "and that's your opinion". Objective meaning is axiomatically worthwhile, it's the exact nature of the idea.

Ryan wrote:What I have been trying to let you figure out this entire time is that emotions and logics are intertwined. You cannot separate them and say this is not necessary... of course you could and it would be very interesting to see the result... but I can guarantee you that the affect will not be that which you expect.


You don't give me any reason to be swayed to this view? Above you denounce supernaturalism but that really doesn't lend itself as an argument for your case. Perhaps you could give me some points as to why I should believe feelings and cognition are intertwined in a way that matters?

Ryan wrote:You keep politely accusing me of being a "naturalist" in the sense of everything being predetermined. The answer, once again, is definitely not.


Even after the very naturalistic passage just now where you denounced supernaturalist ideals?

Ryan wrote:But I do believe everything happens for a reason. I know we have freewill and can affect the outcome of things.


How can you denounce supernaturalism and at the same time promote free-will? Your ideas are coming across as very disjointed.

Ryan wrote:However, that does not exclude the fact that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For everything we know there is a positive, negative and neutral... even on the Planck scale of objective construction to action and reaction... You can not separate them... no matter how logical or illogical you may find them.


I don't follow, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I think you may have mistakenly used the Planck scale.

Ryan wrote:For you to come to the conclusion that any emotion is superficial and mundane is purely subjective.


No it's not. If it's physical then it's naturalistic, naturalism works under subjective meaning whereas supernaturalism works under objective meaning. These are axiomatic truths for as long as the very definitions of the terms remain so.

Ryan wrote:Biologically speaking females of our species are much more constructed around and about emotion. It is the love and care of a mother that provides an infant with the better chances of survival and higher chances to exceed in social success. Scientifically speaking and proven. And to toss that fact out the window as being superficial in result is not logical at all. If anything only, once again, proves that your conclusion is subjective and not objective...


You just described a very naturalistic process, there is no meaning objectively inherit to it for that reason, any meaning seen in it is thus arbitrary. And arbitrary meaning is in actuality just an absence of meaning and a presence of perception..
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby mirjana » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:50 pm

ThePermster wrote:I'm sorry again Dermot but your entire post was a lie and I do not accept it's sentiments and I call you to re-evaluate.

You have been unreasonable and counter-discursive in this topic and any mote of a revision of your posts will show anyone that. And I am more than experienced with mature disagreement so I do not accept any form of grandiose delusions on my part; do not for a second believe that I am not careful to mind my own.

Nevertheless, far be it from me to allow online dialectic to dissolve entirely, and I am more than willing to reunite ways and should you wish to respond in riposte to the actual discussion at hand then I will gladly move on with you in kind. I am much in agreement with Sabina that disagreement should lead to counter-point and not verbal hostility....

To Dermot

I am sorry Dermot that I have not noticed these words before as I would stand against it just as you did.


To ThePermster

As I tried to explain in my PM to you, I left this discussion as it is not easy for me to follow it. Still, I decided to reread the whole and see if anything has changed in the mean time, so that I could eventually add my five cents.. Instead I found this sentence you wrote to Dermot which is the opposite of your statement that "disagreement should lead to counter-point and not verbal hostility".
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby ThePermster » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:40 am

mirjana wrote:As I tried to explain in my PM to you, I left this discussion as it is not easy for me to follow it.


I'd rather not do a play-by-play account of things (seems a tad unnecessary) but perhaps it was this reason that may have led to you not noticing the detractions of Dermot's posts?
Perhaps I was wrong that they were easy to see but they are nevertheless there, that I am sure of.

mirjana wrote:Still, I decided to reread the whole and see if anything has changed in the mean time, so that I could eventually add my five cents.. Instead I found this sentence you wrote to Dermot which is the opposite of your statement that "disagreement should lead to counter-point and not verbal hostility".


I expected an apology, I instead received an attempt at a defence, which I declined. Doesn't seem hostile to me?
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby Sabina » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:21 pm

ThePermster wrote:I expected an apology, I instead received an attempt at a defence, which I declined. Doesn't seem hostile to me?

Arrogance can seem hostile as well, and be easily confused with hostility.
I don't remember any instance which called for an apology from Dermot, to you.

Additionally, it may be helpful to hear a few synonyms for the word "hostile".
    They are...
    adverse,
    alien,
    anti,
    argumentative,
    bitter,
    competitive,
    contrary,
    ill-disposed,
    inhospitable,
    spiteful,
    unfriendly,
    unkind,
    unsociable,
    unwelcoming

There are more, but the above are among them.
I hope this helps...
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby ThePermster » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:30 pm

Sabina wrote:Arrogance can seem hostile as well, and be easily confused with hostility.
I don't remember any in - snippity - re more, but the above are among them.
I hope this helps...


I think the only of those words that fit the bill for my post are "anti" and "contrary", were any of the others to apply that would be the reader seeing vitriol where it wasn't intended. The post seems extremely passive to me.

And I hardly think it's arrogant to expect an apology when acted upon untowardly, isn't that basically a right of a civil society?

Like I said, I'd also like to avoid providing a play-by-play account of the offences as I think it'd be rude to dermot and is mostly unnecessary but if the issue is pressed further for whatever need of petty justice it might fulfil then I will. Though I hardly think it necessary, frankly I don't think it even really matters anymore.
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby dermot » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:03 pm

ThePermster wrote:Like I said, I'd also like to avoid providing a play-by-play account of the offences as I think it'd be rude to dermot and is mostly unnecessary but if the issue is pressed further for whatever need of petty justice it might fulfil then I will. Though I hardly think it necessary, frankly I don't think it even really matters anymore.


About this, you are right it does not matter anymore.

It mattered at the time, and although that time has passed, it clearly has left a certain bad taste.

Mostly here on DS members conduct themselves (in my opinion) with dignity and compassion for others. Its what we would like to experience in the wider world, and possibly what we are trying to achieve for ourselves in our own lives.

I'm sorry Permster, yet again i feel your words fail your philosophical posturings.

You may, under duress, be capable of meeting the needs of "petty justice"......did you really mean to say that ......and do you stand by the arrogance shown in those words.

Come on ......give us all a break, show us who you really are?
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby ThePermster » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:42 pm

dermot wrote:Mostly here on DS members conduct themselves (in my opinion) with dignity and compassion for others. Its what we would like to experience in the wider world, and possibly what we are trying to achieve for ourselves in our own lives.


Look, I'll face up to it ok, I didn't know that; popping into a discussion, adding nothing to the proceedings, taunting someone's assertions as "vehicles for amusement" and then leaving without so much as a how's yer father, was accepted as friendly nomenclature around here, ok? I'm sorry to have called you out on it and I'll admit I was wrong to do so.
At least now I know that dignified and compassionate discussion allows me to mindlessly insult the ideas of others just because I find reason to be offended by them. And now I know this I look forward to engaging in this productive activity in the future.

dermot wrote:You may, under duress, be capable of meeting the needs of "petty justice"......did you really mean to say that ......and do you stand by the arrogance shown in those words.


Yes I do consider the justice involved in microscopic internet quibbles rather petty. How high and mighty of me.

dermot wrote:Come on ......give us all a break, show us who you really are?


Sure, but you'll have to wait until my next regeneration cycle. Jokes aside though, I never really understand the intent of this question, and what the desired response is. Isn't it just hackneyed rhetoric?
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby Sabina » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:05 pm

I am sure Dermot will reply to your post and questions, but I did want to add a line or two as well...

ThePermster wrote:Look, I'll face up to it ok, I didn't know that; popping into a discussion, adding nothing to the proceedings, taunting someone's assertions as "vehicles for amusement" and then leaving without so much as a how's yer father, was accepted as friendly nomenclature around here, ok? I'm sorry to have called you out on it and I'll admit I was wrong to do so.
At least now I know that dignified and compassionate discussion allows me to mindlessly insult the ideas of others just because I find reason to be offended by them. And now I know this I look forward to engaging in this productive activity in the future.

Dermot didn't mindlessly insult your ideas and the "vehicles of amusement" quote came after several attempts of concrete and solid argumentation and questions, by him as well as Ryan.
Sarcasm is really not necessary, nor does it help clear up any misunderstanding or problem, ever.

ThePermster wrote:Yes I do consider the justice involved in microscopic internet quibbles rather petty. How high and mighty of me.

Justice is justice and, as Dermot explained, our level of conversation and mutual respect, patience and tolerance, should be no different here on DS than in real life.
So then, why should it be any different with justice?
This isn't just a place to practise rhetorik or exchange ideas and thoughts, but also open up, relax, be yourself, because you can. Because you are among friends.
So, if that atmosphere of friendship is affected and altered, then this place would indeed become something entirely different all together.

That would not only be a pity, but is simply not necessary.
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby dermot » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:33 pm

[quote="ThePermster"]
Look, I'll face up to it ok, I didn't know that; popping into a discussion, adding nothing to the proceedings, taunting someone's assertions as "vehicles for amusement" and then leaving without so much as a how's yer father, was accepted as friendly nomenclature around here, ok? I'm sorry to have called you out on it and I'll admit I was wrong to do so.
At least now I know that dignified and compassionate discussion allows me to mindlessly insult the ideas of others just because I find reason to be offended by them. And now I know this I look forward to engaging in this productive activity in the future.

So in your opinion my contribution to DS involves the following,
"popping into a discussion"
"adding nothing to the proceedings"
"taunting someones assertions"
"leaving without so much as how's yer father".

Presumably you presume your contributions to be more balanced, more informative, better.
They may be.......
They may not be....

I think what bothers me most is that you dont really care, you have shown no heart no soul, just a blind expectation to be the informed voice, the only voice.

Permster what you think of me.......is NONE of my business.

As for me, i find your attitude......boring.
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Re: Fear or Laziness

Postby ThePermster » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:59 pm

Sabina wrote:Dermot didn't mindlessly insult your ideas and the "vehicles of amusement" quote came after several attempts of concrete and solid argumentation and questions, by him as well as Ryan.
Sarcasm is really not necessary, nor does it help clear up any misunderstanding or problem, ever.


So it was ok for him to say that was it? Just so I'm on the same page we're going with that being a perfectly justified thing to say yes?

As for solid argumentation, I must have been reading a different thread because I got two decent responses to my ideas and after that all I received were ill-justified attempts at retraction from the discussion and context ignoring rhetoric. Designed for nothing but pejorative means.

Sabina wrote:Justice is justice and, as Dermot explained, our level of conversation and mutual respect, patience and tolerance, should be no different here on DS than in real life.
So then, why should it be any different with justice?


Real life or no I still consider this quibble petty.

dermot wrote:So in your opinion my contribution to DS involves the following,
"popping into a discussion"
"adding nothing to the proceedings"
"taunting someones assertions"
"leaving without so much as how's yer father".


Actually I'd rather take the opportunity to whole-heartedly disagree with that. Certainly I'm finding your input within "Unlearn : Purge : Forget" to be quite interesting.
But here in this thread alone you have been this way, yes.

dermot wrote:I think what bothers me most is that you dont really care, you have shown no heart no soul, just a blind expectation to be the informed voice, the only voice.


Before you start pushing the close-minded card you actually have to witness me unreasonably deny ideas. And to do that you first have to offer alternative ideas.

dermot wrote:Permster what you think of me.......is NONE of my business.


Ok, so for the sake of eventually reaching resolution yes we can certainly keep our impressions of one another with-held until hard feelings are given the necessary time to dissipate, good idea...

dermot wrote:As for me, i find your attitude......boring.


...Oh wait..didn't you just...hrmm...
Seriously though, come on now, this is just schoolyard tactics.
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