Faith

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Faith

Postby Ryan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:29 am

Faith: A belief not resting on an experience, logical proof or material evidence.

Anything that is explained by a matter of faith does not require anyone's belief.

Clarification:
God (as referred to by most) does not require anyone's faith to do what he/she/it does and will continue to do whether anyone or everyone has faith or not.

If it requires a faith it, in essence, doesn't really matter...faith in it doesn't change what is happening, going to happen, or has already happened. That is not to say your faith in it will not affect you...but then that would bring the topic to "just how important are you and what you do in the grand scheme of things?" into the scenario. However, if the answer to that is again based upon a faith...well then, it doesn't really matter does it?
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Re: Faith

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:02 pm

I understand why you comment on faith the way you do, but that is not what faith is for me. I will attempt to explain my view of faith.

I do something. However that something is judged by others, I know that my motivations are always positive and what I call noble. I trust that others will recognize that. If they don't, then they probably have a reason why they don't or can't see it. If they ask me, I can explain. Sometimes (rarely) I will do so even if they don't ask, depending on who I'm talking to.

I had an idea of what I wanted to happen, in the sense of what my goal is.
I am not talking about some grand goal, it can be a mini-goal as well.
Like...
I read a book - one of my goals is to know its contents.
I make lunch - my goal is to feed others and myself.
Life is filled with mini-goals.

Usually the formula for reaching a goal is like this:
The more complex, the bigger the goal, the more complex its accomplishment.
This complexity of the goal's accomplishment comes from the involvement of other people, because if something is only up to me, then it will and does happen. That part is having faith in myself, and yes, it is also based on experience with myself.

When it comes to other's involvement however, it gets more complex, and that is where faith really kicks in. I hope for the best, I see the, to me positive, outcome with my mind's eye, but sometimes it doesn't happen, or it doesn't happen instantly. Faith helps with the patience needed to get through that. Kind of like a knowing that eventually it will all be as it should be.

I have always believed that everything happens for a reason.
Isn't that faith as well?

I will close with this:
Everything will be ok in the end.
If it's not ok, it's not the end.

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Faith

Postby Kris » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:29 pm

Hi Ryan,

It is nice to meet you.

You bring up compelling thoughts. Here is another way to contemplate faith. If you need to cross a bridge and you believe the bridge is safe (for this example lets understand that belief and faith are two different things). You even know the engineer (or God, higher power, ) and are certain he is competent and has a flawless track record of building solid and sound bridges. It still takes faith on our part to cross the bridge. I believe faith is acting on what you already know to be true.

Another example. A loving parent gives a child a gift. That child may know that the wrapped present is good. It is not coal or something that will harm them. It is something they have wanted and desired or needed. Faith is believing and trusting the parent enough to open the gift.

Or let’s say you are not sure the bridge is safe (but it is) You have heard rumors that a the engineer is not competent. Your distrust of the bridge or it’s architect doesn’t change the integrity of the bridge. But it will change whether you have the faith to cross it. Maybe sometimes we put our faith in a lie.

Or maybe we don’t realize the wrapped gift is valuable, or given in love. We chose not to open it. Maybe we don’t even see that there is a gift. It doesn’t change the gift. The gift is still there. We just don’t have the faith to open it.

For me, the more I learn TRUTH, the more likely I have the faith to cross the bridge or open the gift.

Blessings

Kris
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Re: Faith

Postby Kris » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:32 pm

Sabina wrote:

Everything will be ok in the end.
If it's not ok, it's not the end.

Sabina


That is a very good quote. I will give you a kudos after I get the kids up and to school Sabina!

K
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Re: Faith

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:42 pm

Kris,

I have really enjoyed your contemplations on faith. I think (!) Ryan's problem is not so much with the concept of faith, as it is with the misuse of the word "faith" and the misuse of faith itself.

As for the quote I added, I also love it, and think it's one of those that can (should?) be kept close to our hearts, kind of like an attitude towards life, put into words. I am not sure if it's clear or not, but I would also like to add that I am not the author of the quote. I don't know who is, otherwise I would have included that information.

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Faith

Postby Ryan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:55 pm

- To Sabina -
What you described I would call a belief in yourself in the determination and persistence of making your goals a reality (regardless of how complex)...but I would think this belief is based upon past experience of accomplishing your goals, isn't it?


- To Kris -
Nice to meet you as well.
=0)
From my experience as a child and watching my own kids open gifts... it was more curiosity and excitement that pushed me/them to open the gift. The child has past experience with the parent to know that they wouldn't give them something harmful or "bad"...it's not really a matter of faith... If I were to often pull scary pranks (the spring that jumps out of the can of peanuts, etc) on my kids in gifts then they would probably become a little weary when I give them presents.

Also, I have never crossed a bridge because of who built it...as a matter of fact... I don't think I could name one bridge's engineer, architect, or construction date... I usually cross a bridge just because I need to get to the other side and the bridge is the only way available to do it. Also, if it is an older bridge it has probably been used and therefore from past experiences it has proven itself sturdy (again logical proof). I have never (knowingly) been the first person to ever cross a bridge so I can't really speak from experience as to what my thoughts might be or how I might react.

- Edited Clarification -
Sabina has brought to my attention that there are different definitions as to what the word faith means... and I would like to stress that I realize that and that is why I put the definition of the faith to which I am referring.
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
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Re: Faith

Postby Kris » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:16 pm

Ryan,
I have very much enjoyed your discussions. I was in no way debating your point on faith. I was only adding a few of my own thoughts.

Very articulate and astute reply to the bridge/present analogy by the way. Well played. I look forward to reading more.

Kris
;0)
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Re: Faith

Postby Sabina » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:27 pm

Kris,

First of all, when I read your reply, I felt like hugging you... Your message is so cute and lovable!

I just want to add, since you said that you were in no way debating Ryan's point on faith, why not? After all, this is the Spirited Debate forum, so where if not here?
=0)

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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