Definitions...

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Re: Definitions...

Postby Ryan » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:51 pm

Yes... thank you...

I understand your definitions much clearer...
What most people would consider to be...
1. the thought process, reasoning, calculation, or contemplation
2. expectation, projection and reception, or the law of attraction
...all fall under the common term of communication for you.

Thank you for clarifying.

If I may ask, what are your thoughts on the more common understanding of the word communication where it is the process of exchanging information between two or more individuals? Do you feel that defining things in order to transmit an idea, feeling, emotion, or occurrence to another individual that did not experience it is limiting that person's ability to understand you? And if so, would you explain why?
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Re: Definitions...

Postby dermot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:44 am

Hi Randall,
my earlier post was a rushed one, and didnt convey what my thoughts were on reading your post.
I will try to put that right now.

I agree that the need to define things is necessarily confining, to me it leads to negativity.
My problem in this regard would be over identificatin with the mind, which is really limited. If we live through the confines of the mind, without finding out how to step outside it, then we get a very distorted view from a very narrow angle.
Beauty , Truth, and Creativity exist at a deeper level than the mind, to get there we need stillness, peace and time. Lots of it for me!
I think for me reading your post, which i largely agree with anyway, took me to a place of having to look for Truth, knowing that i was in the wrong place to start looking. Most of the time we are identifying with the mind we seek to judge, confine, justify and generally get lost. I know i do.

Maybe its called Spirit, maybe its called the 'Detatched Observer', but its a place where we can observe the mind at work, see its limitations, and decide to detach. That for me leads to better understanding and less haggling with the mind that has something like 60,000 thoughts per day, 55,000 which we had yesterday also..

Im still rushing........hope this makes sense!

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Re: Definitions...

Postby Randall » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:39 pm

=0) Thank you dermot, that helps quite a bit, thank you for taking the time to help me see clearer what you intended.

Ryan I'll break down the questions here...

I
f I may ask, what are your thoughts on the more common understanding of the word communication where it is the process of exchanging information between two or more individuals? Do you feel that defining things in order to transmit an idea, feeling, emotion, or occurrence to another individual that did not experience it is limiting that person's ability to understand you?


Limiting... very much so.
I'm not suggesting we throw the baby out with the bath water however.

And if so, would you explain why?


I'm sure you have told your children that you love them. "I love you" those words don't even come close to what you feel for them, but they are the best you have to offer in the use of words. Even when you take into account the actions behind those words, it still falls short of what is inside you, the width and breadth of it. It doesn't stop there does it, because that feeling is growing all the time.

Limiting, indeed. Very much so. I can give countless examples ;0)

How about I say this differently all together. "Ridding ourselves of the confines of our definitions in every regard will lead to greater understanding."

The definition held and confined is a great limitation, the definition left open to be MORE is a gift.

In this sentence, "The man and woman that are living together across the street aren't married." Can mean a great many things and what is said doesn't contain the fullness of the man and woman and their living conditions. However, our mind puts all sorts of things into that one simple sentence. Things that may or may not be accurate, all based on our definitions.

I'm sort of rambling now... does that answer your question Ryan?


Sabina, I haven't forgotten your question,
So Randall, what are your thoughts on a better way to hear and listen, or the perfect way to communicate?


I have several ideas and even a vision that could be a more perfect way... But its my belief that by the simple act of following my heart and letting go of the need to define all the aspects of my life it will come in a natural fashion.
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Sabina » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:39 pm

Randall,

I must admit I am confused...
If you are a poet, or like poetry, if you are a writer of any sort, then surely you are aware of the challenge that is presented when putting anything into words.
We try to define love, while realizing that it can never be confined to words. Defining it isn't imposing limits on it if you know from the start that it is intangible and limitless.

Exploring subjects such as love, or wisdom, or beauty... are not an attempt to diminish these things and lower them to the level of "words only", but to share our understanding of it, based on our life experiences - while perfectly well knowing all the time that it is more than just the collection of our experiences.

A poet also explores with words. These explorations can be called definitions, or they can called poetic views. When discussing something as intangible as love, what is the difference?

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Re: Definitions...

Postby Ryan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:46 pm

Tube fly down walk street frown by time it hat to them when purple ate green. Jack couldn't and did so Jill bounced while tickle crawled.

Fill empty as cold burns and still good lost the applaud to bring paper trophy for chicken.

Still pickles can't sleep...?

80|
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Randall » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:56 pm

hahahahahahahaha....

think I'll just let this one go for now ;0)
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Ryan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:59 pm

I <3 You!
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Sabina » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:02 am

think I'll just let this one go for now ;0)

LOL!

And my attempt goes unnoticed... buried underneath of Ryan's epic poem...
Oh well. I do understand though, so no hard feelings.
;0)
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Randall » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:07 am

Oh dear Sabina, I did read yours :)

I'm just at a loss for words to share what I'm trying to express further at the moment.... ironically this also points toward things being
limited
LOLOL
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Re: Definitions...

Postby Randall » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:54 am

Ok, I'm ready to explore this a bit more. I want to share a conversation I had with the son of a long time friend. It's rather long and for that I apologize.

John starts:
Why does Lucifer mean light bearer? If he is the son of the morning what is Christ called? If Satan tempts us to do wrong who tempted him to do wrong? If the spirit is perfect and the flesh corrupt why did Lucifer become corrupted in spirit? I thought God could not create imperfection or he would cease to be God (isn't that why he did the whole Garden of Eden thing? Man had to corrupt himself?) Just questions.....

But for the answer I look to the Tao te Ching..."Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty, only because there is ugliness. All can know good as good only because there is evil. Being and nonbeing produce each other. The difficulty is born in the easy. Long is defined by short, the high by the low.... So the sage can act with apparent duality and paradoxical unity."

In other words it is all the same creation and beauty, it is the mind that creates the separation of the two/the duality. Neither is evil it just is as it is.


My reply:

great questions... keep going… keep peeling that onion.

“If Satan tempts us to do wrong who tempted him to do wrong?”
What is wrong? Peel the onion...

What is Satan’s role? When you fully understand the purpose of “wrong”, I think it will answer itself.

Now the biggie… what is God? And remember, we cannot create outside of who and what we already are.
If that is true… then “God” made all this with what in mind?

I’ll add some more questions...
What are some of humanities base needs?

What are some things we are born desiring to do?

Could that possibly point to a reason why we are here and even more to the nature of God and Spirit?

Is there really such a thing as duality? Or, is that a three dimensional perspective of something that has more dimensions?

If it is just a perspective… what other perspectives do we hold that limit and define what is indefinable?

We see the sunrise and we perceive it from this fleshly perspective. We see it and relate to it based on what we feel and what we witness, and as our understanding of what occurs at sunrise broadens, so does our definition. Is there anything we experience fully and have full understanding thereof?

Funny thing about the sunrise, just about everyone has their own sensation of it and while in many cases we can find similarities, everyone seems to have a slightly different expression of that experience that is personal in some way. All of life is that way. All of our experiences are filtered through a subconscious mind that labels and defines every single thing we have ever been a part of and thus we can share the experience of the sunrise and have a different understanding of what it meant to us. No two people ever share the exact same “truth” because of this.

How might this understanding work into the foundations of religion or any spiritual teaching?

Taking away our definitions and allowing all our experiences to unfold and become all that they might, is to me, a worthy endeavor. LOL and something I struggle with maintaining.

There really is purpose to all things...

And just a side note: No matter what topic, when the layers are peeled away, amazingly you'll find the same core.

If that's not something to amaze, I don’t know what is.”


Johns reply:
I know that we talked about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs which explains what the essentials of survival are.


My reply:
Maslow left out one huge portion, or perhaps he thought it was a given and didn’t need to be taught straight forward, but he was wrong, in my opinion, either way.

Our most basic need and desire from the time we are born till the day we die... is communication. To be heard. To be understood. To hear. To understand. We have lived and died for this and we still do, each and every one of us.

In all our experiences, our most desired form of communication is love. Now, put two and two together then re-examine everything you have ever known or been taught. We come here with one very deep and profound need, to share and experience love.

The cynic will see this and scoff, "What about the evil done by man in our world."

It's simple. We are broken and less than when we don’t have these things in our lives. When we are denied an outlet, when we feel as though we are not heard, when we feel we are not loved, the need becomes so profound that some will reach for anything to be heard. Many seek control or power over others because that need is so strong.

It’s through our ability to communicate we source our lives even as it is in spirit. Sharing and accepting love, in all its forms, brings us closer to who we really are.

Sharing, being heard, being understood is the greatest form of communication, for with out it we are lost to ourselves. It’s only in our sharing that we can accept, that we can receive. We do this at every stage of our lives.

It’s been said and taught with great acclaim that we must first learn to love ourselves before we can truly love others. There is much truth to these words but there needs to be an addendum. The process starts with sharing our need and desire, first with self and then with others.

We all seek a safe place to simply BE who we are, in every way, and in that, find acceptance. We've read about those who have found total acceptance with God or with Love. Their names are in our sacred texts, they are the Jesus’, the Buddha, Hari Chrishna...and many others. This can take place in many forms and in many ways but I will tell you this, it has never once been achieved from one human being to another, and yet we seek that form more than any other. Should two people come together and share the fullness of self from one to the other, nothing on this earth will ever be the same. That is what I believe we have a chance of. Total acceptance and complete sharing, from one to the other is the end of fear on this plane of existence. The physical and the spirit both will be whole and we will explore what it means to grow in love.

That’s my belief


John replies:”
I still can’t bring myself to agree with this. Maslow didn't leave those elements out they are there they just don't come first. Love is a huge part of the hierarchy of needs.

Reading the book "Night" this last month confirmed for me the truth of this theory. People killed their own family members over a piece of bread when they starving. I agree that love is important but it doesn't come as the first priority when you don’t have shelter, food, or water.

It is easy for us that have never been in such dire circumstances to believe that we are only here to love, but we have most likely never been in the position where we have to think about the things that come before we have that convenience.

Maslow is not perfect other theorist have changed this model but I believe most hold the first elements in common.”

My reply:
John... I think you might have mis-read what I wrote.

"Our most basic need and desire from the time we are born till the day we die... is communication. To be heard. To be understood. To hear. To understand. We have lived and died for this and we still do, each and every one of us."

This is first and last. In fact I'm not sure we can come up with something we do that isn’t some form of communication. LOVE is the form of communication we desire the very most.

I respect your opinions though.

What I added later:

I wanted to revisit this tonight when I had more time to reply. First off, I am honestly not trying to push any buttons but I do want to expound a little on my observations and beliefs.

John you wrote:
"Reading the book "Night" this last month confirmed for me the truth of this theory. People killed their own family members over a piece of bread when they starving. I agree that love is important but it doesn't come as the first priority when you don’t have shelter, food, or water.

It is easy for us that have never been in such dire circumstances to believe that we are only here to love, but we have most likely never been in the position where we have to think about the things that come before we have that convenience."

This is from what I shared last night:
"We are broken and less than when we don’t have these things in our lives. When we are denied an outlet, when we feel as though we are not heard, when we feel we are not loved, the need becomes so profound that some will reach for anything to be heard. Many seek control or power over others because that need is so strong."

Even as there are many experiences like the one you've shared here, where people have killed others for survival, there are just as many where people have done just the opposite and given their lives for the survival of others. It's only been a few months ago that I read about a young nine year old boy in one of the African nations who had lost both his parents during the ethnic cleansing their government was enacting. He was left alone with two younger siblings in a remote village. The story comes to light when aid workers find the boy with his little brother and sister on the verge of death. They too were starving. The aid worker who recounted their story said that the nine year old boy was only hours away from death when they found them. He had been giving his siblings his share of the food for days just to keep them alive. I could share other stories equally as moving. There were several stories of similar love and care shared in the concentration camps in Germany of the Jews imprisoned there. Several others from starving nations. Even a few stories of the homeless here in the states.

John, you've held a new born baby, what is your very first experience with them? I would imagine you felt love... and I am sure that when you look back you felt their love as well. It’s when we are denied our outlets to express ourselves, especially with in love, that we have the strong tendency to act from a place of fear and lack, just as those family members acted in the book you recently read. Often times it’s not nearly that extreme, but we do it to each other none the less. Look at the lives that surround you as an example. There are relationships that you have doubtless seen that exemplify what it means to love. When you get the chance to speak with one of them, they can only say positive things about the other person and they just beam when they speak of them. In those relationships they actually are able to share and accept each other to a high degree. Now, look at the other relationships. There are many out there that attack each other and needle each other in very hurtful ways. It’s always because in one way or another someone isn’t being heard... understood... accepted.

Look at the children in your life; they bear this idea out strongly. The examples of what I'm trying to share are countless.

Ok, I hope maybe I've shared my belief with a little more meat and maybe you can see it clearer even if you disagree.”


John writes back:
Beginning to see and agree...the remaining question is where you draw the line between fear and instinct. I tend to agree with what Tolle says in "The Power of Now" (pg 43, the origins of fear) that there exists a psychological form of fear; it is a fear that always comes from a mind made projection into the past or the future. In other cases i.e. when you are threatened by fire there is something else, that is totally different that kicks in that is not fear but instinct. (The fight or flight response)”


And my final response:

I'll give you the short answer and then I'll try and explain it a bit.

Instinct is acute understanding and fear is lack of understanding.

I'm not sure how or why we have come to mix the two up, maybe because the physical sensation we experience with both comes from the same general area. Instinct is a knowing we experience through out our lives, but it’s from a core of understanding we are born with and its more dynamic than we give credit. Its instinct to love and to fear. It’s instinct to eat, sleep, and seek comfort. Its also instinct that can guide us in the most positive ways through out our lives if we learn how to listen to it. Instinct is when we use all our senses, not just our physical ones, to gather information and come to a conclusion.

Fear is simply our instinctual reaction to something we don’t understand.

I think our very base instinct is self preservation. Remember though, every thing goes hand in hand and when we start breaking things down as we are doing, we cant forget the other things happening at the same time, we cant lose sight of the bigger picture. What is self preservation? How do we accomplish it?

We access all of this through communication, internally and externally.

This is a very deep and interesting topic and one that we can get into much further if you would like.”
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