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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:58 pm
by Randall
I have found over the years that the need to constantly define the world around me out of a need to understand actually lead to a place of limited understanding.

We often define every thing surrounding us… Just a suggestion, but I would encourage others to step out of this seeming need. Let your relationships exist with out definition… let your life be lead with out definition. This simple act can help us to realize what we know in our hearts, that we are boundless and connect with the truer nature of self.

Defining any thing is a process of confining.

I’ve heard the complaint that we have to have definitions so we can communicate openly and clearly with each other so that we might better share our understanding. However, since the dawn of the spoken language its been a double edged sword. There simply is no way we will ever have the same definitions across the board, because we define things based on our understandings and our understandings come from our experiences and our experiences are dictated by our individuality.

I’m not sharing anything you already don’t know right?
I’m not trying too.

This is a problem and will always be a problem … it wont go away. It’s just that simple.

Unless we find a different way to express ourselves
Unless we find a better way to hear, to listen

What are your thoughts of a more perfect way to communicate? Not only with each other, but with self and with spirit.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:29 pm
by Heidi
Hi Randal,
Welcome to Deep Spirits!

I think that language as well as definitions are necessary in our everyday life, especially at work and when we need to give specific instructions about something that needs to be done.
Think for example a legal contract without definitions, or students not using exact definitions when writing a physics test.

In our personal life, definitions could sometimes be avoided, especially with people we love . We don't need definitions to describe our feelings or define the relationship when we are together with someone we love, and by doing so, we feel more free to enjoy what we have. However, even in very personal matters, definitions are necessary for social reasons.
For example, we say: “ they are engaged,” "they are married,” "they are living together,” and we understand the kind of relationship two people have. For them such a definition may not be necessary, but it's probably of great importance for their families and the culture they live in.

I think that language is a good tool for communication on this level of existence. Of course we define things based on our understanding but when I don't understand something, or something is completely new to me, language will help you to explain and me to understand.

As for communication with self and spirit, I believe that no language or definition is needed. On the contrary, the use of language and words in such a communication would prevent it. This is something really difficult to achieve because we have been accustomed to communicating by using language, and it takes time to develop such a form of speechless communication.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:26 pm
by Ryan
I agree with Heidi, in order to communicate you must have definitions... even if you were to completely communicate through emotion, images, sound, touch using a mind meld, or whatever, that which is being communicated is still defined. A certain light, certain temperature, ambient sounds, dominant colors, smells, blurriness, inner emotion, heart rate, outward appearance... all these things set the mood... define the moment with which we are trying to communicate to the other so that they can understand exactly how things were and felt... In the present time, all we have are words and past experiences... or maybe we have more but have limited ourselves... I don't know, but without being able to communicate with those who are exploring the depths of the psyche through defined words we might not ever develop past those sets of limitations.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:35 pm
by Sabina
Randall wrote:Defining any thing is a process of confining.


Like you said in your post, it is a double edged sword. Let us say that at first I might not think of defining anything at all... I feel it, I know it, I am certain that is true,... it is for me anyway. Love, for instance.
The most powerful emotion, the force that gives our hearts life, that's what it is for me. Much more than that, but let's leave it at this for now.
And then I hear someone else talk of love... and spread their views of love... and I hear how a view is being spread that love should be a higher spiritual love... and terms like unconditional or selfless love get thrown around (yes, hence the other topic in this forum)... I get very very confused.
So I ask questions and try to understand... and then I hear explanations about love and the ego, except that things get so mixed up that I wind up watching one person judge another person's love, and none of it makes sense anymore. Me in this case being the impartial (confused) audience.

When within me, I don't need definitions.

Yes, our experiences are dictated by our individuality, like you said, and other people's experiences are dictated by their individuality.
Of course I don't need definitions to communicate with the spirit, nor with myself, but I do want to understand other people and their individuality, and defining things, with an open mind and an open heart, can be helpful in that respect.

Randall wrote:Unless we find a different way to express ourselves
Unless we find a better way to hear, to listen

What are your thoughts of a more perfect way to communicate? Not only with each other, but with self and with spirit.

Did you see this topic: What if everyone was telepathic?

I think that if there is a genuine sincere curiosity about the other person, then we automatically hear and listen better. It might still not be spotless and perfect, but perhaps it could be called optimal under the circumstances of our current predicament.

Personally, I have always been interested in developing telepathy... to "hear" the unprocessed thought, bare naked at its essence.

So Randall, what are your thoughts on a better way to hear and listen, or the perfect way to communicate?


Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:05 am
by Randall
Valid points all. This posting isn’t about what is now, but about what might be should we give it room to grow. Our beliefs are made real inside us and its our definitions that surround our beliefs in so many aspects of life. What is it to be a father, a mother, a wife, a husband, a son or daughter? Concepts, ideas, beliefs surrounded by a definition of what or who am I. A mother that feels inadequate because of what that MEANS to her until she lets her definition fall and allows herself to be who she is and wakes to find her inadequacies diminished and life with her children open up to something more. A husband that feels condemned to his life and its situation because of his beliefs of what it means to be a man and a husband turns a corner and finds new meaning and a best friend by his side.

Our thoughts become reality just as easily to our benefit as to our detriment. We seek to define self through all that we experience. We define our love, our roles and our stations. And yet in the moments of quiet contemplation we know there is more.

We seek to remove ourselves from that which we don’t understand and exists outside our definitions. We build walls of right and wrong, worthy and unworthy. We enslave ourselves to our definitions of thought when we could liberate.

There is a huge desire that we should be right in all that we do and with in this need exists the mortar for the walls we place into our lives.


Greater understanding can only come when we make room for it. Greater love can only come when we give it a place to grow. Greater communication with self and with others will come when we allow for it to exist with in us.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:25 am
by Ryan
I agree with you Randall for the most part, however, you are mainly talking about a state of being which is limited to the "self"... and needs not be communicated and I completely agree with you there. All is possible and by defining one's self they are only limiting themselves.

But then you close by again speaking about "Greater communication"... and communication is only possible through defining because you/we speak in regards to the past, present, and/or future... which is only the beginning of the definition. The definition only grows and becomes more complicated as you move on. However, if you want to talk about a form of communication that transcends time and space then you would be talking more about the quantum mind and several steps towards a unified consciousness in which things simply ARE... but what then is there to talk about? There is no "Self"... we are then speaking about unification, oneness, where there is no communication, only experience... like the state of being as described above. You don't have a need to communicate to yourself. You don't have to define the experience to yourself... you were there, you know exactly how it was and how you felt about it....what is there to communicate?

To communicate a feeling, emotion, or to simply tell a story in this singular physical plane of existence there must be an equally understood language with which to transmit the definition of the whole to the other person in a way to leave as little as possible to be misunderstood because we simply experience things separately and differently.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:30 pm
by dermot
Hi Randall,
have you heard the line 'paralysis by analysis'?

Maybe i am lucky but i dont confine myself easily and dont engage in defining anything that much. In fact the opposite may be true, i leave myself open pretty much all of the time and then i can become struck by indecision...or can i ?

i dont remember the specifics but it is said that most communication is non verbal. I think evoloution has dulled some of our senses to the point that we dont use or trust them. That does'nt mean they dont exist or that we cant tune in to them. Sabina mentioned telepathy, intuition can be amazing when its used or if its used.

Energy, in terms of things being either positive or negative is something i try to tune into, within myself or around others.

What i am saying is that i found reading your post to be tuning in to a negative, i believe there is another way, and this leads to freedom.


Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:57 pm
by Randall
Hello Dermot,

You said,
What i am saying is that i found reading your post to be tuning in to a negative, i believe there is another way, and this leads to freedom.

and it truly took me back. I very much appreciate your post and if would for me share why you feel a negative tune in what I've shared. I'm asking so that I can more clearly see what it is your seeing, feeling. My intent and desire with this posting is quite the opposite and it was my hope to put a light on something that is common place with in our society and with in self that often hinders our growth and understanding with a look at what might empower us toward a better, more clear communication.

Please, if you would, let me know how my communication can get clearer.

Ryan, I've read your post a few times and I'm not sure what it is your saying. I'm not sure if your asking me to clarify my post further or if your simply stating how you see things. I don't find anything in your post that I have a disagreement with however I don't see an address to my question,
What are your thoughts of a more perfect way to communicate? Not only with each other, but with self and with spirit.

Sincerely, thank you for your replies.

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:30 am
by Ryan
I am stating my confusion in your statements in hopes that you will clarify them so that I might be able to understand what exactly you are talking about.

I understand a contented state of being and how defining yourself is assigning limitations to yourself but a do not understand its connection with communication (so as to why you end the post with a reference to communication) because it is my understanding that communication is a means by which we share experiences or knowledge and I do not see how that can be done without defining the happening or message.

My answer to your question was that communication in any form depends on defining that which is to be communicated from one to another and that there is no need to communicate with "self" because the "self" experienced it and interpreted it already. Or do you have the need to communicate things to your self? Maybe that is the point of confusion for me... as I do not need to communicate with my self...

Re: Definitions...

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:30 pm
by Randall
I’m not entirely sure how to make my point clearer, but I’m going to give it a go =0)

Communication, to my mind, begins and ends with self. Every day you make choices and those choices come from self communication and the definitions you have placed in your mind.

Let me give you an example.

A few years ago we were living in a fourplex appartment. With in the fourplex, my brother in law and his wife, my mother in law and my nephew all lived in the ajoinding appartments. With everyone living so close we were able to get to know each other pretty well.

One year, during the Christmas season, everyone was going to meet in our appartment for a small party. I wasn’t looking forward to it at all. My sister in law would be up with us and she is a very negative person. Rarely does she have good things to say and her attitude with others is normally aggressive. That is what she represented to me, negativity and strife. I had defined her and also defined the communication I could expect to have with her.

Wanting to change the way I felt about her coming to the party, I started exploring my emotions and thoughts surrounding her (self communication). I realized that the energy I held when she was around was one of expectation that she would behave negatively. I saw how that contributed to the situation in a negative way and then told myself I would greet her openly and with out the expectations I’d held and allow her to be however she was.

When the party came, I was greeted by a woman I had not met before with in my sister in law. She was warm and engaging and was full of compassion. The experience I had with her prompted me to continue the idea of not defining her or the time spent around her. While she still exhibited extreme negativity at times, she would move out of it more often than not and our relationship was much better.

My communication began with my self and translated to the communication I shared with her. With in the communication process I had been defining things to the degree that I had created a self fullfiliing prophecy. She always was negative in every circumstance. When I dropped that definition and allowed her and the experience of being around her to define itself, everything changed.

This is just an example, a very small one.

Does that help Ryan?