Defining Wisdom

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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:15 pm

Excellent reply....I agree with almost everything you say. Almost like a miracle a veil has been lifted from my eyes ;)

I must say I thought you were a Christian......... Brrrrrrp! Wrong again Georgie.

So on to your post......yes I know what you mean.....like a game at a party where people consecutively whisper something in each others ears until at the end of the chain, the meaning is completely changed.....even unrecognizable.

Anyway, it turns out we view the bible in a somewhat similar way. "Take what you need and leave the rest behind" applies to all religions/philosophies etc. Where we differ a little is that you think a lot of the problem stems from the uneducated Baptist preacher. I find that intelligence (at least traditional intelligence) can be compartmentalized so that although the world in general is viewed through the eyes of reason, in a cult like way, the sacred words and wisdom of the accepted religion are exempted from that,

I promise you, the idea that the bible is exactly literal which seems ludicrous to you and I is accepted by a cross section of Americans who call themselves Christians. Look at the mega churches and there influence on politics, education etc. The beliefs of a big portion of the population are exactly that and not necessarily dictated by education level. Please read Sam Harris's ...... "Letter To A Christian Nation"...... it is paperback and only an hour or two read. I promise you will find it fasinating. I also recommend some of Dawkins books on religion.

I had not heard where the saying "bless you came from".... very interesting!

My point with Bronze Age thingie is that in every discipline we have advanced greatly in the past 2,000 years. Often in spite of the church. Why is the body of knowledge put in a book by people of relatively no knowledge of the world still accepted by most Christians as "Gospel" and to question it reveals a lack of faith. Admittedly, Texas may be a little worse in this area than some, but my experience in many states with the Christian outlook is very similar.

This is one of many sites that address the frustration I often feel with my Christian friends.

http://www.etymonline.com/columns/fallacy.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html

http://www.samharris.org/site/book_lett ... an_nation/

I am enjoying and profiting from our discussions...this is an excellent forum to do that.
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Ryan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:40 am

;0)

All is good...

I am not quite sure I understand what you mean by the following:
George wrote:I find that intelligence (at least traditional intelligence) can be compartmentalized so that although the world in general is viewed through the eyes of reason, in a cult like way, the sacred words and wisdom of the accepted religion are exempted from that,
Can you elaborate?

I don't necessarily think that a lot of the problem is due to the uneducated preacher... I think they are only part of the problem. What I truly believe to be the biggest problem is that people have stopped thinking for themselves and allow the government, church, society or all three do it for them... and they just want to manipulate and control the people to the point of building a society of slaves that think they are free because little by little they gave up their freedoms willingly to feel safe and secure... physically, spiritually and financially.

I understand your point about when the Bible was written as you have explained... but I am unsure about the advancements we have made that have changed the meaning of the stories in the Bible. I mean... as far as I have understood the Bible, it mainly deals with people living together and how to love each other, suggestions on how to overcome our self-imposed limitations and predefined judgments, becoming one with a vast universe of knowledge and understanding in order to live a more peaceful and harmonious existence... I do not really see how we have accomplished those things and therefore how those stories are no longer applicable to life nowadays... but maybe I am just not understanding what you mean.

I am not saying that the Bible is just that ( stories of such things)... definitely not... after all, man wrote the Bible... not the "invisible man in the sky"... so there are definitely mistakes and probably propaganda meant to impose a social structure for the benefit of the aristocracy that chartered the translation and publishing of the Bible... but that stuff is pretty clear and evident... well to me anyway...

By the way, I agree completely! This has been a most exciting and wonderful discussion to say the least!
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby GenerousGeorge » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:41 am

Hi Ryan.....I'm back from the Sunday night adult BB leauge. Unfortunately, I'm the oldest "adult" there at 67 and the 25 year olds that can "jump out of the gymn" have no "respect" for their elders. For that matter the 35, 45 and 55 year olds don't either.

"Were not as good as we used to be and probably never were."

Still, they know they cannot leave me open for that medium range jumper and it does my heart good to hear one of the young studs tell his teamate....."I told you.....DONT let the old guy shoot!

By compartmentalizing, I mean that many people who are intelligent and apply reason to every aspect of their daily affairs have a compartment in their brain that separates religion from being subject to reason. Anything sacred in the name of their magic guy in the sky is accepted because the Bible says so and the Bible is the literal word of an omnipotent God. Should you be bold enough to ask how they know the Bible is the literal word, they respond.......because it says it is and it is never wrong.

I never cease to amaze when a Christian lawyer, scientist, engineer whom I know is quite smart and logical pleads the case for Jesus that way. It makes me want to shake them and scream, use your God given brain for crying out loud. However, no matter how promising a conversation with starts out and the person shows a keen intellect on anything else, it's like their brains shift gears to compartmentalized Jesus section which is "firewalled off" to avoid the evil logic of the heretics.

I don't mean that the advancements we have made have changed the meaning of the Bible, but we disagree on the Bible as a great source for telling people how to live together, love each other, live a moral harmonius existence. To glean or cherry pick the good stuff from the Bible about those subjects is necessary to get that kind of life guidance and still it is not that profound.

George Carlins take on the ten commandments makes fun of this guidance but it has some good points......divine guidance ought to be better thought through by the smartest guy in the world.

http://www.skeptic.ca/george_carlin_ten ... dments.htm

Another example of the profound wisdom of the Bible....

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087621/

But....still today we rely on this kind on the product of Bronze Age men to tell us how to live together, love each other, live a moral harmonius existence.

Even the basic commandments are not especially wise or profound, especially not for the "wisest of them all".

UH OH being paged by son for bedtime story.....more later.
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Alvino » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:17 am

My Dear Mirjana:

I feel very certain that this Wisdom and God belief is my original thought.

support: Catholic School = almost forever because I flunked a few grades,
plus six earned college degrees and finished all class work for my 3rd MA
and 2 more and I can earn my Principal/superintendent certificate and
3 more and I can earn a Home Building degree. And I have read tons of books, rarely were they fiction.

but I must consider what YOU KNOW == There is nothing New under the sun = this, too, is vanity.

PS: With great Love and Respect I sincerely and strongly suggest Folks read my
very favorite and Most Favorite Book in the Bible = the book written by JESUS.
it is about 80 percent about Wisdom. I LOVE IT.
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Sabina » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:28 am

Alvino wrote:PS: With great Love and Respect I sincerely and strongly suggest Folks read my
very favorite and Most Favorite Book in the Bible = the book written by JESUS.
it is about 80 percent about Wisdom. I LOVE IT.

Hello Alvino,

Do you mean the Bible itself or a part of the Bible, or something else?

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Alvino » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:05 am

The book written by Jesus in the OT is named Sirhan who was
Jesus' grandson.
this book is not recognized by Protestant groups.
Sorry, I did not name it. Thank you.
I think only one other Bible book Proverbs comes close
to this book for addressing Wisdom.
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Sabina » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:21 am

Ok, but when I google that name (here's the link: Sirhan, or Sirhan book), the results don't look right.... are you sure it's spelled like that?

Which proverb from the bible are you referring to in reference to wisdom?
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Ryan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:43 am

George, I understand your frustration...sincerely I do... I, as a teen and well into my early twenties, blatantly rebelled against my surroundings to the point of severely harming myself because I was so passionate that they were all hypocritical charlatans and I wasn't going to play their games. To oppose one direction of fanaticism with another is equally as frustrating to everyone else around you.

Through the attack of something considered holy you will not accomplish anything but confirm your own beliefs that there is no "talking" with a Christian about their beliefs. Because as a response to your attack they can only immediately grab hold of their "rock" with both hands and legs and defend it with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears going "Na na na na na na na na!!". It is a completely natural response for someone who was never taught to question things and not to simply accept with blind faith...but more to the contrary.

If you realize that most of these "Christians" grew up knowing nothing else... parents of "Christians"...aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends..their whole life surrounded with "Christians" and Christian beliefs... It's the only thing they know... and no matter how false and corrupt it maybe, they do find comfort in it all. And you want to jerk the band-aid off? Pull the blanket from the child's clutches to show them that it is a false comfort...? It's not going to work and the harder you pull the more they will pull back!

The approach is the same of the Catholic missionaries who came to "save" the native Americans from their savage ways... and it is equally faltered... because the reason you do it is Love but the way is not.

Show love, understanding... ask questions (without implying the answer)... just give them (as you said earlier) "food for thought"... Not necessarily the faults within the Bible... but in the man that is interpreting the words... that were translated and interpreted by the man whose mother language was not Aramaic... put faults on the man as those can be easier to accept than putting the fault upon "the Word of God". That will be rejected and the door will be closed in your face without a hope of reaching them... you will be labeled and to never again be a source of information regarding their beliefs. Instead appeal to their already existing beliefs, man is a sinner and falls to temptation (mistakes in the bible are due to man's error... it could even be that the wisdom of God's or Jesus's words were not understood correctly by those that wrote them down in the first place... trust their heart as Jesus resides there and speaks to them from there...), Jesus and God are loving and forgiving... does the scripture that has been translated as "whatever" show a loving and forgiving being? Is this how you love and forgive your children? Why would God love his children any less... are you capable of loving deeper than God? Maybe it was a misinterpretation or translation... or even worse an added intent from the governing body that translated the words and published the book?

Offer alternative interpretations that would be easier for them to accept than that which has been preached to them...

The object is balance... not by countermeasure but by pulling more and more of the extremes from the outer edge to the center... If you pull too hard, too fast... the result won't be what you wanted but more a mess than a solution.

Just food for thought...
;0)
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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby mirjana » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:38 pm

Alvino wrote:My Dear Mirjana:

I feel very certain that this Wisdom and God belief is my original thought.

support: Catholic School = almost forever because I flunked a few grades,
plus six earned college degrees and finished all class work for my 3rd MA
and 2 more and I can earn my Principal/superintendent certificate and
3 more and I can earn a Home Building degree. And I have read tons of books, rarely were they fiction.

but I must consider what YOU KNOW == There is nothing New under the sun = this, too, is vanity.

PS: With great Love and Respect I sincerely and strongly suggest Folks read my
very favorite and Most Favorite Book in the Bible = the book written by JESUS.
it is about 80 percent about Wisdom. I LOVE IT.


Mine was a simple question about the sentence I liked and admire. Sometimes people, me including,paraphrase something because they like it, and it is OK. BTW, that does not have anything to do with a level of knowledge. I was a bit surprise with "My dear Mirjana" and your need to tell all about grades, MA and other certificates, as to me it looked like you felt offended and needed to prove something which was not asked. Am I right? If so, I was surprised, because my intentions were good and affirmative. So far, nobody has ever asked anything of grades or qualifications here, neither has I, as for our open debates led here, it is not important. What represents us here are words we use in these talks. So, without attention to assume, I asked and the same time recommended the very same your sentence to be posted as your quote under DS Quotes. It has shown the best what I thought about that sentence.
There is one section here :CONSULTATION/Quotes by Deep Spirits where DS members can have their quotes posted. The whole procedure is described there and after reading it you will understand why I ask the question I asked, recommending the same time this your quote to be posted there.


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Re: Defining Wisdom

Postby Alvino » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:25 am

MIRJANA:
I am deeply grateful for your SHARING all that you did:

My conscious reason was What does it take to qualify for this Quote desination:
my answer was show WHY I believe it is original so my education was used to
show I had read many books. What I wanted to say was: Thanks for pointing out this Group
system of giving credit for original quotes and, because I did not know how to qualify I made the boo boo of offering my extensive reading history as evidence for my belief that it is original.

bottom line: I am extremely grateful for your help.


Mirjana, I repeat, Thank You. What you did to Help me is one of the primary
traits that I would seek in a Friend: You kindly took the time to Help me.

SABINA: Ouch - two mistakes in one submission.
Yes, your thinking is totally correct: I gave you the wrong name.

SIRACH. The book deals with the individual, family and the community in their relationships with one another and with God. It addresses Friendship, education, the law, religious worship
and other matters which reflect social and religious customs.

This is for George: I have another belief which I believe is an original thought .
George, "There is ONLY ONE PERSON on the entire earth who knows who and what God IS."

I think I read a long message from Ryan in here sharing suggestions about what you
could do regarding your statements about what and who God is (is not).
I feel that if you identify the ONE PERSON on earth who knows who and what God is
you will begin to use all of Ryan's suggestions in your future comments to yourself and to others about the Cristian Religious doctrines and beliefs.
There is another way of saying my quote:
"Alvino (George) there is only one person on the entire earth who can tell George or Al or anyone else who and what God is."
George, I am reading all of your posts with Great Interest and I sincerely thank you for
sharing them with me.
Thank you, Ryan for that long Wise post.
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