Change & Fear

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:44 pm

mirjana wrote:When I was talking about life I didn´t make comparisons with life in general, but with the true story of The King and Becket and the one the writer of the play(movie) chose to make.

First of all, we are only talking about the movie here, and not history! This is important...
Discussing history (which does not necessarily equal "true story") is not possible in this case, as we don't know enough about it. So the story from the movie is taken as an illustration, and only the story, only what was shown in the movie, and how it was shown.

mirjana wrote:But, turning your question as a supposition, in the "if" situation I would prefer to be Becket than The King, if this answers it.

Ok, but that is not the question at all. It was only about the king's love and whether it comes with "strings attached" or not, at least that's how the movie came up originally. If love in itself is a string, if you will. I have opened the topic Love in the mean time, so now we are only discussing Beckett and the king's love here . :)

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:48 pm

Sabina, I know that we discuss movie, and I stayed by that. If you looked over my text you will realize that. Mentioning life was in the context of your question that was also extended out of the movie(life).
I would appreciate if you answer my question put few posts before which was very connected with the movie and related to love. Maybe if it was done, we would go in complitelly other direction with our thoughts.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:04 pm

The proof of the King's love for Beckett comes from his behavior when Beckett was not around. Even though the king was deeply hurt with Beckett's actions, to the point of hating Beckett, he stood up and wouldn't allow anyone to talk badly about him. He was pacing the floors because they hadn't seen each other for a while after Beckett's inauguration as Archbishop. All the things he took pleasure in before left him empty inside now that Becket was gone. His genuine agony and suffering in having to treat Beckett as he would any other person that stood in his way.

Beckett didn't follow his heart... ever. Every situation he found himself in he was put in. He didn't have any ambitions to be anything but he did everything the best he could do. He explained it several times within the movie. Once after the bath when he took the towel from the servant and dried the king himself even though he was now nobility. Then when the king said to Beckett that he had the feeling that if the situation dictated Beckett would be as much against him as he is now with him. Again when he was given the title of archbishop. He didn't follow his heart when he was young, his heart told him to take revenge on the Normans, which is why he took the one monk under his wing (the monk followed his heart). He didn't follow his heart when he felt he should speak up about Gwendolen. He made one attempt at following his heart when being given the title of archbishop in that he suggests to the king to not do it. Everything he did was out of self-preservation. He didn't side with his own people because for him they had been conquered and if he would have followed the path of his heart he would have surely been destroyed because his heart told him to fight them and from that moment on all he did was take whatever position he was given and do it to the best of his abilities. When he was archbishop and the monk had a fling with a woman, the Lord of that land arrested the monk and when the monk tried to escape he killed him. That was all "by the book" except that he didn't have the right to punish a monk because that is the church's privilege. What followed had nothing to do with the heart. It was strictly business.
Mirjana wrote:Becket became a symbol of someone who defend the choice made with the contract with the soul, and someone who recognizes the importance not to ignore such a contract when becoming aware of it. Actually, what made him grand is not only that, but the fact that by doing that he again didn´t take anything from anybody but defending it with his own life.
That's exactly what I am saying...it wasn't a matter of the heart, or love it was all "contract", business, duty that caused Beckett to do the things he did. When he excommunicated that Lord for killing that monk he wasn't defending his own life... but I agree with you that most of what Beckett did was for his own life. Being a collaborator against his own people, not standing up to the king when he thought/felt something to be wrong, running off to France... Yes, most of everything Beckett did was for his own well being and honor.
Mirjana wrote:If he had made the choice of love and friendship, and not his vanity as a King, having power as he had, and it is shown so far what he all was able to do thank to that power, he could have saved both friendship and love. But, it was less important to him.
He made the choice to put his friend in the position of archbishop because he did not think that it would affect their relationship and he tried to save it again when they met on the beach and Beckett said that the king should know they won't see each other when he returns...

Mirjana wrote:But, turning your question as a supposition, in the "if" situation I would prefer to be Becket than The King, if this answers it.
Me too, the king suffered much more than Beckett.
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:09 pm

mirjana wrote:How do you know that he loved him and not only admired him as Becket was smart, interesting, faithful and obedient?

I think love and admiration are quite different from each other, and the king obviously had both for Beckett.
Additionally to everything Ryan wrote in answer to this particular question, which I agree with, I would like to add that just because you admire someone you don't have to care for them at all personally, and the king cared personally at every point of their time together.
Again, we are not discussing the nobility of the king as a human being, nor any other aspects of the movie. Only his love for Beckett.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:18 pm

Respectfully disagree and in that sense I do not have anything else to say to the topic.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:40 pm

Interesting...
=0/

Mirjana wrote:OK, Ryan, I didn´t understand it as a way to agree or disagree, but more as the exchange of thoughts.
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:54 pm

Ryan wrote:Interesting...
=0/

Mirjana wrote:OK, Ryan, I didn´t understand it as a way to agree or disagree, but more as the exchange of thoughts.


It is:
"I guess we'll have to agree to disagree..."

It was meant that we both disagree and in that moment I thought that we were debating.

My sentence about disagreamnet was only about me, which was the shortest way to show that I do not have to add anything more into the box of debate.Therefore I said:
"Respectfully disagree and in that sense I do not have anything else to say to the topic."
I said all my thoughts about my opinion and your last post haven´t brought anything new in the sense to change my opinion.

Maybe one more, I wouldn´t choose Becket because he suffered less than King, because I do not agree in that point too. He suffered more. And finally, he didn´t kill anybody in order to show how much he loved them.
I would chose Becket because he was more consequent as a character in both roles, as a friend and as when he also had to defend principles and something else than him, himself. Even when put in that position, what was not necessary, because based on the law already existing it was easy for the king not to put their friendship and his "love" into the play, he behave only according to his heart and his beliefs.
Of course, if you think that there is more to say, well I am here...

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby shomi » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:05 am

You have no business to believe me.
I ask you to believe nothing that you cannot verify for yourself. . .
If you have not a critical mind, your visit here is useless.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:51 am

Hi Shomi =0) Welcome to Deep Spirits.
Nice and expresive avatar and great signature with Gurdjief words. In Time Machine Forum I mentioned that I would love to spend an afternoon with Gurdjief. I mentioned Gurdjief dance there too.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:10 am

Hi Shomi and welcome!

That's a pretty good crash course/introduction to Gurdjieff and Castaneda!

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