Change & Fear

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:23 am

I wasn't doing a character study of them, it was only about the king's love.
And that love was there even after Beckett resisted him.
It didn't matter what Beckett did, the king still admired and loved him.

Whether the king is spoiled or not has - in my opinion - nothing to do with whether he loved him and how much he loved him, or do you think it does?
Does one have to be flawless in order to love wholeheartedly?

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:57 am

How do you know that he loved him and not only admired him as Becket was smart, interesting, faithful and obedient?

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:03 am

I never viewed the king as spoiled... I mean as far as "kings" go he was rather down to earth... He definitely had his flaws... couldn't stand the sight of blood, he was a womanizer... but just that he (a King and a Norman) loved Beckett (a Saxon) against the advice of so many in his surroundings show someone who thinks for himself and doesn't conform to others expectations. His problem was with the church (probably because he wasn't a conformist). As a king he is responsible for all the people in his kingdom regardless of their religion, race, etc. The church was only concerned with themselves and their religious followers and they were causing problems for him as a ruler of a country.

Because the king loved and trusted Beckett (regardless of how misplaced his trust was) in order to help him with getting the church to support him in his decisions and needs as a king... he was only using Beckett? Hmmm... I don't think so... to me it seemed more like... love is blind. He has spent over twenty years with him, they knew each other well and he loved him and didn't think Beckett could really choose someone else over him. Wrong? Granted!

Beckett was not capable of love... the only two people he even came close to loving was Gwendolen and the king... the thing was that Beckett simply took his jobs/roles very seriously... he was very responsible. You could even say he was unbiased in almost everything he did... that can certainly be admired... the king surely wasn't... most of everything he did was based upon passion, pleasure, and familiarity... but to judge him spoiled because of that I am not so sure it would be an accurate accusation.
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:17 am

Ryan wrote:I never viewed the king as spoiled... I mean as far as "kings" go he was rather down to earth... He definitely had his flaws... couldn't stand the sight of blood, he was a womanizer... but just that he (a King and a Norman) loved Beckett (a Saxon) against the advice of so many in his surroundings show someone who thinks for himself and doesn't conform to others expectations. His problem was with the church (probably because he wasn't a conformist). As a king he is responsible for all the people in his kingdom regardless of their religion, race, etc. The church was only concerned with themselves and their religious followers and they were causing problems for him as a ruler of a country.

First, we talk about movie (based on the play) not about real life, as in real life things were a bit different. Still, turning back to the movie, the whole description above didn´t show how one can see that The King loved Becket. The King couldn´t spend time with anybody for a long time, all were boring for him (family, children, court members...) except with Becket who was interesting to him. The same time he head a permanent need to remind Becket who is who and what all he did for him. Love?
In this friendship The King had a need all the time to keep his superior position expecting from Becket to respect it and the same time believing (what an absurd) that based on that relationship, the friendship that has begun earlier could last. He didn´t invest anything deeply in that friendship except his need to be loved, what, knowing what he said to his mother(how separated from her he was) was a normal reaction of some who was longing for love, but have never learned how to give love. He only knew to ask for it and to expect it as self understanding. That is the point in which I think that he, or whoever with such approach, is a spoiled person.
Ryan wrote:As long as Beckett was obedient and a good servant who could give up even his love
Because the king loved and trusted Beckett (regardless of how misplaced his trust was) in order to help him with getting the church to support him in his decisions and needs as a king... he was only using Beckett? Hmmm... I don't think so... to me it seemed more like... love is blind. He has spent over twenty years with him, they knew each other well and he loved him and didn't think Beckett could really choose someone else over him. Wrong? Granted!

For me it was not a blindness of love but a logical thought and decision of the man who was The King and who is shown the whole time as the person who will use everything in order to make that what he wants to work. (Remember the moment when he was thinking even to use his own son for the purpose to show his superiority.

Ryan wrote:Beckett was not capable of love... the only two people he even came close to loving was Gwendolyn and the king... the thing was that Beckett simply took his jobs/roles very seriously... he was very responsible. You could even say he was unbiased in almost everything he did... that can certainly be admired... the king surely wasn't... most of everything he did was based upon passion, pleasure, and familiarity... but to judge him spoiled because of that I am not so sure it would be an accurate accusation.

Oh, yes he was. The way how it is shown in the movie was much more love than that what is shown as a represtantion of King´s love. Actually, aside of having fun in Becket´s company and admiring his depth and wisdom, what we know about his love is what is said from his mother and wife (logical jealousy in regard to that how much time he spent with Becket which only served them to realize more how boring they were for The King) and from him in the moment when he with his words of "suffer" and "love" inspired his officers to kill Becket. Actually this scene is very good description of that how it was in the real life.
Even by his final coming to the thumb of Becket, he did a very good maneuver in order to get his point, in which he was anyhow very good. By the way he was The King.
But, Love? Oh, no, for me it is not a manifestation of love, none of these deeds.



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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:54 am

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:30 pm

=0) OK, Ryan, I didn´t understand it as a way to agree or disagree, but more as the exchange of thoughts. I have got some insightful thoughts about The King, which I put in the back, as I was more under the impression of Becket as a character. For that I am thankful and this is my benefit from this discussion.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Ryan » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:33 pm

What exactly impressed you about Beckett as a person?
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:03 pm

Ryan wrote:What exactly impressed you about Beckett as a person?

I shall answer this question although I haven´t got the answer on the question I put about how do you know that he loved him and not only admired him as Becket was smart, interesting, faithful and obedient. What I got was a debate about that if The King is spoiled or not. OK, in that part, as you said, we stayed in disagreement. But, if so, then further debate would be sensless. As it is not, we are here again.

Becket is the one who follows his heart consequently. He is not a privileged one by the status priory so whatever he wanted to deserve or defend he could rely only on himself. He is a typical tragic hero, what was obviously the attention of the writer to show, who must sacrifice his life in order to defend his dignity, his honor and his choices. The King didn´t need to do any of these, as being The King made him possible just to take. What he couldn´t take was somebody´s else’s dignity and right to make personal choice, which is God given right, and as he wanted to be before that power as well, he proved the wrong choice he made. If he had made the choice of love and friendship, and not his vanity as a King, having power as he had, and it is shown so far what he all was able to do thank to that power, he could have saved both friendship and love. But, it was less important to him.
Actually, it was like that in both, real life as well as in the play or movie.
Becket became a symbol of someone who defend the choice made with the contract with the soul, and someone who recognizes the importance not to ignore such a contract when becoming aware of it. Actually, what made him grand is not only that, but the fact that by doing that he again didn´t take anything from anybody but defending it with his own life.



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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:28 pm

Some of the things you say are true in life in general, it's just that they don't apply to this movie and these two characters at all... It's almost like you were convinced to side with Beckett no matter what.
Why? Because the movie is called "Beckett"...? Or could it be that you had some personal associations that made you side with Beckett, so you disregarded what was actually shown in the movie? Could that be?
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:32 pm

It could be both, and it always is I think in the case of everybody. When I was talking about life I didn´t make comparisons with life in general, but with the true story of The King and Becket and the one the writer of the play(movie) chosed to make.
To have an assumption that I talked about Becket just based on the name of the movie, is strange, as all my words were not part of the title of the movie. This fact was not important at all.
But, turning your question as a supposition, in the "if" situation I would prefer to be Becket than The King, if this answers it.

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