Change & Fear

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:14 pm

Yes, of course it makes sense, but I think that A (as in "Anyone" :) should only help for the sake of helping.
If A truly only helps for that reason, then there can never be any problem, regardless of what B does or doesn't do.
If B decides to help at any point, then that's nice, but if that wasn't the original motivation for A to want to help in the first place, then nobody gets to feel bad, neither A nor B, and only good comes from it.

Of course what you said makes sense and perhaps it is closer to how things are in the "real world", I don't know... I do think it can be like I described above, and that ultimately it would lead to more happiness all around.

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:09 pm

Sabina, I agree with your comment, it works sometimes, but it has to be a
"program of attraction, not promotion", only when peole are truly ready to receive help will it be regarded in a different way than the Chinese "Tongue in cheek" proverb intimates. =0/
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:27 pm

GenerousGeorge wrote:...but it has to be a "program of attraction, not promotion"


Ok... but can you explain that in a little more detail please?
When is it a program or attraction and when promotion?

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:23 pm

Sabina.....program of attraction means the benefits of a religion, spiritual program etc. are self evident and sufficient so that when someone who might benefit sees positive results in the life of someone practicing those beliefs, they voluntarily ask for more information or want to give that program a try of their own volition.

An example of a program of promotion is Christian Missionaries going to other countries and trying to gain the confidence of the people by doing good deeds so they can promote their real agenda of allegiance (and tithing) to their invisible, one and only, omnipotent guy in the sky,

Willingness is key and someone who responds to an attraction is much more likely to find answers and meaning in their quest than when coerced or manipulated, even coercion by good deeds. Good deeds to be effective, IMHO, need to come with no ulterior motive or strings attached.
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:12 pm

Ok, I understand and of course that makes sense.
But, the whole thing with "no strings attached" can be interpreted in different ways, depending on the situation.

In some cases it is clear-cut and doesn't leave much room for interpretation:
1. You help someone, you don't want anything at all for yourself = no strings attached
2. You help someone, you expect something specific in return = strings attached

Under normal circumstances I might leave it at that, but just last night I watched an old movie called "Beckett", with Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole.
Here is an extremely abbreviated summary, in case you don't know the movie.
The king (Peter O'Toole) loves and admires Beckett (Richard Burton), so he promotes him higher and higher.
Beckett loves the king as much as he is capable of love, and the two of them have a special friendship.
Eventually Beckett, who becomes the archbishop (because the king makes him that) turns against the king, and the two become enemies.
The king fights against Beckett, while he never stops loving him and admiring him.
He calls him the only intelligent man in his kingdom, on a few occasions.
There is more to the story, but what made me think is this..
I could say that the king didn't want anything in return, but he did want one thing. He wanted Beckett's love, and he never stopped wanting it, simply because he loved and admired him so much.

What would this situation be?
The king helps and gives, and at that time there are really no strings attached.
The king gives because he loves Beckett...
But he eventually realizes that, because he cares for Beckett, he does want to be loved by him as well.
So, did the king's help come with strings attached or not?

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby GenerousGeorge » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:33 am

Selfless love....."progress, not perfection" I love my kids, I want their love in return, but it is not a requirement....sometimes we have to let the people, we love experience life on their own path......it pains us, but if we really love them, we do it...God probably has this challenge all the time.
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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:55 am

Yes George, I completely agree and also see that as a sometimes necessary part of love.

I do think it is easier to do that with children though... because as a parent you always have the awareness that the day will come eventually. In other relationships you don't necessarily expect that to ever happen, but if it does, it is important to allow things to unfold, and all lessons to be learned that will naturally follow.

I have had this discussion with various people, and know that some people see this as "giving up on a person". I disagree with that. What matters is why you are doing something, and also how it came to be. If someone wants to leave, you let them leave...

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:02 am

There is one additional explanation about the movie. In spite the fact that The King loved Becket, he promoted him because of personal interest, not because of loving Becket. He loved him, but because of his high opinion of him and conviction that Becket will always only serve him, he did what he did. What he couldn´t stand was the fact that Becket put somebody (God) before his love for the king.
If something we do is connected with interest we cannot be surprised if the reaction turns into the same coins.


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Re: Change & Fear

Postby Sabina » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:04 am

Ok.. since you think that part was important in that particular movie and story... I have a question.
Did the king love Beckett wholeheartedly?

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Re: Change & Fear

Postby mirjana » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:11 am

It was not problem to love Becket like that who was always and only for him there. Actually The King is a spoiled character who is used only to get and have things for his own sake and pleasure. Becket, contrary was a giving one. The first time when Becket put his inner feeling and honor on the first place, The King could not accept it. His way was to accept only things that pleased him.
He suffered rejection, but the rejection of service more than rejection of love. If it was love, he couldn´t have played the whole case like he did.


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