Beliefs and Acceptance

Metaphysical, spiritual, philosophical or mystical topics.
The forum for talks about the intangible universe, the human mind, and the soul.

Re: Beliefs

Postby Ryan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:53 am

I am not really sure about how the discussion becomes counter productive just because it continues and being that there is already a thread on Beliefs I do not see the logics behind starting a new topic on the same subject... plus... I am getting rather bored with the topic along with the labels and associations that are being handed out as a result of my not caving in to something that has not been very well explained... of course in my own opinion.

It's my own stupidity that brought me to post the Deepak Chopra video... you stated that you obviously can't communicate with me if my re-reading the previous posts didn't change things for me but I always have the opinion that the right approach just hasn't been found if there seem to be repetitive misunderstandings... and therefore I find it hard to just drop a discussion... but I have come to my senses and realized that we know ourselves the best and who am I to argue with you if you feel you cannot communicate with me.
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: no favorite book but favorite stories
Favorite movie: the Star Wars saga
Things I like: My family, nature, movies, games, music... more later
State of Mind or Tendency: Inspired
Kudos: 50

Re: Beliefs

Postby Randall » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:19 pm

There is no need to debate this any further for me Ryan. You have exemplified all the points I had been trying to make earlier, to me. The need we have to communicate, to hear and be understood and the need we have to be accepted. I opened the door so we could continue this if you would like some where else as I do believe that the energy of our discussion detracts from what the others are sharing with each other and I do not wish to do that.
מלכות השמים היא עם ב לך
User avatar
Randall
 
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:08 pm
State of Mind or Tendency: Neutral
Kudos: 17

Re: Beliefs

Postby Sabina » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:04 pm

I explained my beliefs at one point, or a couple of points actually.
Accidentally (or not?) we watched a debate yesterday, with Chopra on one of the teams, and what he said about God in particular helped me realize that his way of wording it is better than mine, in the sense that his way leaves less room for confusion and interpretation.
Wrong wording can lead to a lot of confusion. Before I would have said that I "believe" in God (or a Force, ...), and I would explain it by saying that I feel God, I feel the connection to God...
Well, thanks to Chopra, I realized that the way I was stating my feelings was all wrong. I feel God, so there is no need for me to believe in God... just as little as I believe in other things that are obvious.

Deepak Chopra said:
"If something is real, you don't need to believe in it, you just experience it.
And God is real because we can experience God.
When we experience love, compassion, insight, inspiration, creativity, revelation, free choice,.. when we harness our energies to improve the world, we are experiencing God.
We don't need to believe in that anymore."


I hope these words can help others as they have helped me. It is simple really, and beautiful and true - at least it was for me.

<3
Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Re: Beliefs

Postby Leahann » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:18 pm

Sabina,

You know I have to admit that I've been of that opinion much of my adult life...that when a belief is proven out then it becomes a knowing and stops being a belief.

Then...after so many of my knowings have become proven incorrect with new information I realized that perhaps knowings are only momentary and that nothing is sure except perhaps the idea that the only constant that exists is change.

Using God as my understanding...I have felt more then once that I knew God existed because I felt him...I knew him as part of myself...but with new evidence and personal experience even that very solid knowing came into question...so now...I'm sure that God isn't whom I thought he was...whom I knew he was.

Way back in the day...we knew the world was flat and only a very few people questioned that...it was a knowing...yet tada...it wasn't...so that knowing really was a belief because it was not fact...and it brings into question whether anything is truly solid or "real" as it were and then I look at it and realize for myself that everything that we think is real perhaps has more to it and may not be as it seems, therefore I believe it is real and I can not honestly say I know...because in truth...I don't.

In the end...all that I think I know...even if it is a mass knowing...can change.

So my knowings are really in essence beliefs.

We are really amazing beings and as we are somehow veiled from our very essence of knowledge here in our humanity, which in and of itself is an amazing event, we really don't know but rely on our limited knowledge individually and as a collective...so we must believe...and remain as open as possible to the changes.

This is where the definition of belief is...that all our thoughts are beliefs at various degrees of solidity...and the only true knowing is that all things change.

It is rather abstract actually and when you really go into the nuances of the idea one can get quite lost.

We need to have solid facts and information for us to function here in our humanity, and there are many ideas and things that we must rely on in order to navigate through our lives.

I know I have a need for that security...for that solid base on which to stand...so even though I can see and feel and understand the concepts I am unable at this time due to my needs for security among other things, live within it to the fullest...and that is appropriate for all of us.

Life is a process and within that process we learn and teach and learn some more...and so many live their lives with knowings and beliefs that remain for them as they are unable to or not willing to advance their understandings beyond the comfortable life and existence that they live.

And you know I understand that...I can not tell you how many times I wished I was just like them...:) and yet the adventure of discovery is somewhat exciting.

So many times in our history we Knew things...wrote them down, and taught our young people the truth...our knowing...only to find out hundreds of year later that this knowing was in fact untrue...but it worked at the time.

OK...Hope I didn't confuse the issue.

Leahann
User avatar
Leahann
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:15 pm
Location: USA
Personality: Introvert
State of Mind or Tendency: Happy
Kudos: 2

Re: Beliefs

Postby Sabina » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:26 pm

Hi Leahann,

You wrote: "I'm sure that God isn't whom I thought he was...whom I knew he was"
See that's the thing... I don't try to define God.. I don't think any of us can.
When we define God, we limit God, with our own limitations and understandings.
So I couldn't claim to "know" what God is all about, etc. - but I still feel that God exists - just that.
It has nothing to do with a need for any security, and I also don't need to convince anyone of my beliefs. In fact, I am quite fascinated to explore other people's beliefs and find out about them.
Every once in a while I discover similarities between these "beliefs" and that usually brings me joy.
I don't deny anyone their beliefs and their experience, I feel God, but I most definitely am not going to ever say 'I have God all figured out' or anything along those lines.

I hope my standpoint is more clear now. :)

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Re: Beliefs

Postby GenerousGeorge » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:46 pm

"If something is real, you don't need to believe in it, you just experience it.
And God is real because we can experience God.
When we experience love, compassion, insight, inspiration, creativity, revelation, free choice,.. when we harness our energies to improve the world, we are experiencing God.
We don't need to believe in that anymore."


Interesting......... but I'm not sure it is logically correct and I think it leaves miles and miles of room for interpretation. I'm not saying it is incorrct, or bad..... it just gives me an incentive to experience life and stop worrying about which "invisible" guy in the sky is the right one.

He is saying the definition of something "real" is that we can sense it, feel it as an emotion or it directly affects us in some other way........therefore it has to be real because we are experiencing it. However , experiencing something does not mean that it is real in the way you first envisioned it. He is leaving a huge hole for us to fill in with our definition of God.

For example....... Each religion says "We experience love.....it confirms God is Jesus, Allah, TFSM, Buddah etc. etc. Take a universal feeling, say it is God and then say...... SEE you relate to that, you can understand that...... that proves our God is the one and only God . 80S BRRRRRRPPPP!!!!

Chopra is just saying his definition of God is experiencing emotion etc. ergo...... we don't need to believe in or to "prove" God, just decide to believe that what emotions our experience/instincts tell us are "good" and we are experiencing God. =0/

For me it is just another way of saying, I don't know if there is any particular God ...... as in Christian, Muslim etc., I just Self Project As God (SPAG) and assume that he is all that is good and right about our existence. <3

What I find "ungodly" about organized religion is the idea that the experience of love, compassion, inspiration, creativity is the exclusive domain of a bunch of self serving, ego driven HUMANS B0) that want to charge (tithe) us for the experience and add in their own little "extra" godly requirements regarding what we do in our bedrooms, what we eat, what we wear and most importantly our duty in converting or killing all those who disagree with those rules. =0o

And ancillary to that tell us not to use our "God given" brains to figure out why we must follow those rules no matter what. When we do that it is the "DEVIL HIS OWNSELF" trying to confuse us and lead us astray. Just believe......the end of our 6,000 year old world is near, virgin birth, talking snakes, Noahs Ark, earth is flat etc.....

DO NOT QUESTION WHY YOU MUST GIVE GIFTS AND OFFERINGS TO GOD!!! JUST DO IT!!!
User avatar
GenerousGeorge
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:11 am
Location: Houston Texas
Personality: Extrovert
State of Mind or Tendency: Optimistic
Kudos: 19

Re: Beliefs

Postby Sabina » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:51 pm

Well George... did you hear what Chopra said at the end of the video that Ryan posted?

"... and the most fervent believers in the world are the cause of all the problems in the world right now"
Get it?
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

Re: Beliefs

Postby Ryan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:57 pm

Leahann wrote:In the end...all that I think I know...even if it is a mass knowing...can change.

So my knowings are really in essence beliefs.


Did your knowledge of the existence of God ever change?
Do you have problems knowing that you exist?
Are there some things you know that have never changed or is it every single thing you ever thought you knew turned out to be false?
[R] If you don't understand something I said or why I said it... ask me.
If you don't want to understand something I said or why I said it... tell me.
User avatar
Ryan
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: no favorite book but favorite stories
Favorite movie: the Star Wars saga
Things I like: My family, nature, movies, games, music... more later
State of Mind or Tendency: Inspired
Kudos: 50

Re: Beliefs

Postby Leahann » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:09 pm

Sabina,

I appologise...I thought you're post was about belief vrs knowing...not about whether you believe in something such as God...My mistake.
User avatar
Leahann
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:15 pm
Location: USA
Personality: Introvert
State of Mind or Tendency: Happy
Kudos: 2

Re: Beliefs

Postby Sabina » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:14 pm

Leahann,
There is no need to apologize! =0)
Knowing is knowing.. be it God, or trees, or thunder and lightning, or my hand or that it's sunny outside... it's all the same thing to me... feeling it, seeing it, hearing it, tasting it... it's knowing :)
I feel the wind even though I can't see it. My experience of it is no less real than my experience of God.

"Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music"
Angela Monet
It's very true... ;0)
And hey George, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! B0)

Sabina
"Whether You believe you can, or you can't, you are right."
User avatar
Sabina
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:11 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Personality: Ambivert
Favorite book: Confession by Tolstoy + Chess novel by Zweig
Favorite movie: Matrix + Baraka
Things I like: the arts, free thinkers, creativity, passion, intelligence, honesty
State of Mind or Tendency: Artistic
Kudos: 61

PreviousNext

Return to Spirited Debate

Who is online

Registered users: Yahoo [Bot]

cron
StumbleUpon Digg Delicious Reddit Yahoo Google Live Facebook Twitter MySpace